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Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

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Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

In one way, this makes these guys typical Americans. It seems like so many people even those on the left have shifted their positions on Iraq. The difference is that these guys have done it in front of the country when they were trying to get elected to run the country...and all in the last week.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

I just don't see how anyone can say Iraq was justified based on what they knew at the time or what they know now. They cooked the books.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

No, I mean that we shouldn't have gone in with the info that was published at the time. Knowing what we know how, it is probably one of the worst foreign policy decisions in a generation. Probably more.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

dxmnkd316 said:
No, I mean that we shouldn't have gone in with the info that was published at the time. Knowing what we know how, it is probably one of the worst foreign policy decisions in a generation. Probably more.
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Watch Jon Stewart interview Judith Miller from the NY Times and get back to me. She pumped up the war engines for the Iraq war. Watch Jon's disgust with her bs answers.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

dxmnkd316 said:
It's easy to say that in hindsight.
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A lot of people were saying it at the time.

But the point is you can't say that Cheney is exonerated if you assume Cheney's lies were true. :p

I have a box of lead and I tell you it's a box of gold. You buy it. When you say, "hey, this is lead!" I can't say "but if you go by what you knew at the time you would have made the same purchase, so I didn't mislead you."
 
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Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

That's fine and dandy. Except you had noted and respected metalutgists like Colin Powell telling everyone it's gold. Showing the lab tests that proved it was gold.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

dxmnkd316 said:
That's fine and dandy. Except you had noted and respected metalutgists like Colin Powell telling everyone it's gold. Showing the lab tests that proved it was gold.
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Colin Powell is a Greek tragedy. Talk about an honorable man dragged down to Hades by his association with dishonorable men.

While Dubya, Cheney, Wolfowitz and company will burn in Hell, if I'm Saint Peter I'm giving Powell a pass.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

No kidding.

All I'm getting at is that I can respect the position that "at the time it seemed like the right choice given what we knew. But in hindsight it was a disaster.". People like Sanders can come out and say "I knew it was going to be a disaster and they were lying so I voted against it" when in reality it's much simpler. They just don't like war. Also a respectable position.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

dxmnkd316 said:
No kidding.

All I'm getting at is that I can respect the position that "at the time it seemed like the right choice given what we knew. But in hindsight it was a disaster.". People like Sanders can come out and say "I knew it was going to be a disaster and they were lying so I voted against it" when in reality it's much simpler. They just don't like war. Also a respectable position.
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I would say the guys who voted yes to Afghanistan and no to Iraq earned the right to be taken seriously -- they made the distinction and they were correct.

People who voted yes to both may have been honestly fooled or may be bloodthirsty Neocon swine or may have cynically calculated they wouldn't stand up to War Fever even though they knew it was BS (cough, Hillary). We'll never know, and they're all forever suspect.

People who voted no to both get credit for their anti-war convictions, but don't get credit for a power of discrimination, since they are the clock that is right once a day.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Its nice in a way that Iraq is still tripping up Republicans. An entirely neo-conservative war (spare me the "but, but, Democrats voted for it" - based on doctored intelligence), the current neo-cons need to take one for the team and own this. As far as who's to blame, it goes like this:

1) Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, other idiots - 100% guilty
2) Powell, Rice, etc - Willing dupes, should have known better as they had access to the BS intelligence
3) Lamestream media and its prominent sell-outs (Judith Miller, Bill Kristol, etc). I expect Fox the cheerlead Bush's war. But NBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, New York Times???
4) Democrats who voted for the war. Hillary and crew. Easy to vote against if you're always anti-war, but Dems were given doctored evidence and told they had to vote on it immediately. A bad vote to be sure, but lets focus on who caused all this.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

That's why I get a kick about knuckle-draggers pulling out the, "he/she voted to go into Iraq too" omitting the manufactured evidence that was used to sell it in the first place.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Slap Shot said:
That's why I get a kick about knuckle-draggers pulling out the, "he/she voted to go into Iraq too" omitting the manufactured evidence that was used to sell it in the first place.
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Its like blaming Bernie Madoff's victims for the fraud as much as Madoff himself.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Rover said:
Its nice in a way that Iraq is still tripping up Republicans. An entirely neo-conservative war (spare me the "but, but, Democrats voted for it" - based on doctored intelligence), the current neo-cons need to take one for the team and own this. As far as who's to blame, it goes like this:

1) Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, other idiots - 100% guilty
2) Powell, Rice, etc - Willing dupes, should have known better as they had access to the BS intelligence
3) Lamestream media and its prominent sell-outs (Judith Miller, Bill Kristol, etc). I expect Fox the cheerlead Bush's war. But NBC, CNN, ABC, CBS, New York Times???
4) Democrats who voted for the war. Hillary and crew. Easy to vote against if you're always anti-war, but Dems were given doctored evidence and told they had to vote on it immediately. A bad vote to be sure, but lets focus on who caused all this.
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FWIW, Iraq was meant to be the Millennials' Vietnam (population's too big, so draft as many as you can and prolong the war to control the population). Ever wonder why it seems like countries go to war every few generations or so?
 
Re: Campaign 2016 - It's never too late to start all over again!

Have to say I've enjoyed Marco and Jeb vomiting all over themselves on this issue the last week or so. Apparently even the super dangerous Walker couldn't quite handle the question either. Rand handled it just fine which means he has absolutely no shot at the GOP nod.
 
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