Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Turns out we are pikers when it comes to dirty politics.
Turns out we are pikers when it comes to dirty politics.
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Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
- Thread starter joecct
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mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Look like them
Speak their language
Scare the chit outta them
(There are a number of qualifiers one can check)
And it's not just males. Old broads are batchit scared too. Wouldn't call the group "Reagan democrats" however. Stretching to label them "Goldwater dems " as well.
Entirely new breed popping up here.
Still think hilly's winning. But she needs turnout cause peeps are mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore.
Look like them
Speak their language
Scare the chit outta them
(There are a number of qualifiers one can check)
And it's not just males. Old broads are batchit scared too. Wouldn't call the group "Reagan democrats" however. Stretching to label them "Goldwater dems " as well.
Entirely new breed popping up here.
Still think hilly's winning. But she needs turnout cause peeps are mad as hell and not gonna take it anymore.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Everybody else taking a bath while about a thousand people on or in deep with Wall Street stole trillions made it a lot less abstract. Every one of them knows somebody who lost a home or a business or a retirement nest egg, and they know who benefited. For a while there they were fooled by the WSJ rearguard action that it was The Element, but the problem is they know those guys suffered too.
There was only one group who came out ahead. Huh.
Frum is describing my co-workers to a tee. They hate Big Bidness and Big Finance just as much as they hate Big Gubmint. The sole exception is Big Military, which they lurve.
Everybody else taking a bath while about a thousand people on or in deep with Wall Street stole trillions made it a lot less abstract. Every one of them knows somebody who lost a home or a business or a retirement nest egg, and they know who benefited. For a while there they were fooled by the WSJ rearguard action that it was The Element, but the problem is they know those guys suffered too.
There was only one group who came out ahead. Huh.
Frum is describing my co-workers to a tee. They hate Big Bidness and Big Finance just as much as they hate Big Gubmint. The sole exception is Big Military, which they lurve.
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Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Kep you're being too rational. Yes, I can easily see your co-workers upset at govt, business, etc. Problem is, someone not speaking English taking away jobs is a much more salient point. In polls I've seen of top concerns of GOP primary voters "Screwing Wall St" doesn't seem to show up much. Illegal immigration along with terrorism (the Islamic kind) are at the top.
Trump has nailed something I've also said about cons, which is they don't mind govt largesse as long as they're the ones receiving it. "America for Americans" and all that. He's also keeping it simple. You or I might like a 5 hour Bernie Sanders dissertation on the evils of unfettered capitalism. Joe Six Pack just wants to hear that he and his fellow whities will keep getting their Medicare and Social Security without illegals/foreigners/etc bankrupting it. Trump is telling them that loud, concise and clear.
Kep you're being too rational. Yes, I can easily see your co-workers upset at govt, business, etc. Problem is, someone not speaking English taking away jobs is a much more salient point. In polls I've seen of top concerns of GOP primary voters "Screwing Wall St" doesn't seem to show up much. Illegal immigration along with terrorism (the Islamic kind) are at the top.
Trump has nailed something I've also said about cons, which is they don't mind govt largesse as long as they're the ones receiving it. "America for Americans" and all that. He's also keeping it simple. You or I might like a 5 hour Bernie Sanders dissertation on the evils of unfettered capitalism. Joe Six Pack just wants to hear that he and his fellow whities will keep getting their Medicare and Social Security without illegals/foreigners/etc bankrupting it. Trump is telling them that loud, concise and clear.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Here's the thing, though. Bernie is closer to the populist side on immigration than any Democrat I can think of -- close enough that I find it a tad creepy and anachronistic. Bernie is not from the "What's So Funny 'Bout Peace, Love and Understanding?" crowd of college socialists who coo over anybody with an off-white skin hue, he's a throwback to the true red, white and blue collar Wobbly American socialists of the 30s who were none too pleased about labor wages being undercut by Fernurs. That's what ought to scare the living Bee-Jesus out of TPTB -- Bernie's channeling exactly what those dudes in the TP were on about at the very beginning when they were taking names, R and D, of anybody who signed up for TARP. And if a guy who looks, talks, and acts like Doc Emmett Brown can sit at 39% doing that, then a hairdo with an actor's range of expression from avuncular grin to steely resolve can win the whole shebang saying the same thing.
I'll bet John Edwards is kicking himself.
Here's the thing, though. Bernie is closer to the populist side on immigration than any Democrat I can think of -- close enough that I find it a tad creepy and anachronistic. Bernie is not from the "What's So Funny 'Bout Peace, Love and Understanding?" crowd of college socialists who coo over anybody with an off-white skin hue, he's a throwback to the true red, white and blue collar Wobbly American socialists of the 30s who were none too pleased about labor wages being undercut by Fernurs. That's what ought to scare the living Bee-Jesus out of TPTB -- Bernie's channeling exactly what those dudes in the TP were on about at the very beginning when they were taking names, R and D, of anybody who signed up for TARP. And if a guy who looks, talks, and acts like Doc Emmett Brown can sit at 39% doing that, then a hairdo with an actor's range of expression from avuncular grin to steely resolve can win the whole shebang saying the same thing.
I'll bet John Edwards is kicking himself.
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Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
And if substance was all that mattered though the country never would have had the "gift" of the George W Bush Presidency.
Bernie is correctly identifying the system being rigged, but right wingers DON'T CARE, as long as they're the beneficiaries of the graft. Sanders is advocating a system where you spread the graft around evenly for those below a certain rung on the income scale. Trump voters want those $$$ all to themselves by kicking out both legal and illegal immigrants, and maybe a few first generation non-whites as well! Sanders can't compete with that. He can do angry, but he's not doing angry against the people the right wing base wants to be angry about.
Some Sanders supporters feel he's so brilliant, he's so on target, he's so the man of the moment, that even the most hard core conservative working class voters will see his appeal. What I'm saying is all those things could be 100% correct about Sanders and he STILL won't get their votes. He won't get them because he, rightfully so, refused to demonize the people they want to scapegoat for the nations problems (blacks, Muslims, Hispanics, immigrants, etc).
Think about it: There are plenty of strong man dictators out there. Yet Putin is the only one the GOP holds up in high regard. Ever ask yourself why that happens and why it plays well on the right? Could it be because unlike Kim Jon-Un, Bashir Assad, or Robert Mugabe, Putin is white as a ghost, hence his appeal? Sanders can't compete with that mindset.
And if substance was all that mattered though the country never would have had the "gift" of the George W Bush Presidency.
Bernie is correctly identifying the system being rigged, but right wingers DON'T CARE, as long as they're the beneficiaries of the graft. Sanders is advocating a system where you spread the graft around evenly for those below a certain rung on the income scale. Trump voters want those $$$ all to themselves by kicking out both legal and illegal immigrants, and maybe a few first generation non-whites as well! Sanders can't compete with that. He can do angry, but he's not doing angry against the people the right wing base wants to be angry about.
Some Sanders supporters feel he's so brilliant, he's so on target, he's so the man of the moment, that even the most hard core conservative working class voters will see his appeal. What I'm saying is all those things could be 100% correct about Sanders and he STILL won't get their votes. He won't get them because he, rightfully so, refused to demonize the people they want to scapegoat for the nations problems (blacks, Muslims, Hispanics, immigrants, etc).
Think about it: There are plenty of strong man dictators out there. Yet Putin is the only one the GOP holds up in high regard. Ever ask yourself why that happens and why it plays well on the right? Could it be because unlike Kim Jon-Un, Bashir Assad, or Robert Mugabe, Putin is white as a ghost, hence his appeal? Sanders can't compete with that mindset.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
I think you are too widely generalizing. I believe that for every hardcore racist Trumpy there are at least two blue collar guys who wince a little when he plays the race card and wish he wouldn't, but still believe that on immigration control "the guy talks sense." Populism is by definition territorial and nothing is more territorial than a national boundary. Because there is no ethnic American, er, huh, sorry guys, our territorial populism can be multi-ethnic and non-racist and has been before. It aint pretty, but it aligns well with that other American value. (Forgetting of course that if they're stealing our jobs that means they're working which means they aren't mooching which... well, I didn't say it made sense.)
tl; dr: It can be done, though I doubt it would be pretty.
I think you are too widely generalizing. I believe that for every hardcore racist Trumpy there are at least two blue collar guys who wince a little when he plays the race card and wish he wouldn't, but still believe that on immigration control "the guy talks sense." Populism is by definition territorial and nothing is more territorial than a national boundary. Because there is no ethnic American, er, huh, sorry guys, our territorial populism can be multi-ethnic and non-racist and has been before. It aint pretty, but it aligns well with that other American value. (Forgetting of course that if they're stealing our jobs that means they're working which means they aren't mooching which... well, I didn't say it made sense.)
tl; dr: It can be done, though I doubt it would be pretty.
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Another good piece on the RNC's reaping what they sow.
Another good piece on the RNC's reaping what they sow.
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
I'd say its the other way around. Two out of every 3 likes his "telling it like it is" on race and then 1 out of 3 likes his anti-illegals stance but maybe doesn't want to kick out people who were born here.
This is an ethnic American in the minds of many a conservative, and that ethnicity is "European". Pitchfork Pat Buchanan is a longtime advocate of this view. He was just one of the few to put it down on paper. Trump is capitalizing on that.
Beyond that though, the beauty of the con that is conservatism is that you get to blame people for doing the same things that you are, because you're a real American and they aren't. I don't know of too many righties who refused unemployment benefits. However, if you talk to someone (and I have) who's either receiving them or has a friend/relative who is, they never call themselves moochers. Its always the people somewhere else, who they don't know, who are gaming the system. This has been part of conservatism at least since Reagan's "welfare queens" campaign. Trump has just perfected it.
I'd say its the other way around. Two out of every 3 likes his "telling it like it is" on race and then 1 out of 3 likes his anti-illegals stance but maybe doesn't want to kick out people who were born here.
This is an ethnic American in the minds of many a conservative, and that ethnicity is "European". Pitchfork Pat Buchanan is a longtime advocate of this view. He was just one of the few to put it down on paper. Trump is capitalizing on that.
Beyond that though, the beauty of the con that is conservatism is that you get to blame people for doing the same things that you are, because you're a real American and they aren't. I don't know of too many righties who refused unemployment benefits. However, if you talk to someone (and I have) who's either receiving them or has a friend/relative who is, they never call themselves moochers. Its always the people somewhere else, who they don't know, who are gaming the system. This has been part of conservatism at least since Reagan's "welfare queens" campaign. Trump has just perfected it.
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Unemployment benefits actually do require you to have "earned it", so to speak. That is, you have to have been employed, and employed for a certain period of time to establish wage credits or whatever the state wants to call them. Then, and only then, if you are laid off or fired you may be eligible for unemployment. You have to be ready, willing and able to work. You probably even have to participate in their job search program, all requirements that the left has vehemently fought for years with respect to the "need based" programs typically referred to as welfare.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
I think it's even simpler than that. People who think their jobs can be taken by immigrants want to halt immigration and people who think their jobs are safe don't. For a variety of reasons white lower middle class blue collar workers feel the most at risk. Fighting to keep your job isn't racist.
And that gives the RNC a huge headache, because corporate cons love immigration, in large part exactly because it does put those people out of work and replaces them with a very low wage, highly vulnerable, highly exploitable labor pool. This is the classic game of diving the working class in half and playing one side against the other for the crumb in the middle. The guys who win the battle will fight to preserve the system because they are, just barely, holding on through it. Nobody at the subsistence level can dare to revolt against the whole thing in order to force higher wages for everyone. Therein is the creation story of socialism.
So, the guys who matter to the RNC -- the guys who cut the checks -- want immigration, while a huge chunk of the base doesn't. Up muntil now the RNC has been able to blame the Dems, and the Dems have taken that and run with it because Yay Diversity Pants Party!!11!1.
But along comes Sanders, and let's call it Sandersism -- the idea that populist unease with immigration can be territorial and economic but not racist. If Sandersism, with or without Doc Brown, ever starts to take root among the Dems, the Republicans' whole con is exposed and their captive white working class voters will know just exactly what they have been played for. Heck, at the rate Trump is going he may just tell them himself.
And how ya gonna keep the folks down on the "cut taxes on the wealthy, free the entrepreneurial spirit" plantation then?
I think it's even simpler than that. People who think their jobs can be taken by immigrants want to halt immigration and people who think their jobs are safe don't. For a variety of reasons white lower middle class blue collar workers feel the most at risk. Fighting to keep your job isn't racist.
And that gives the RNC a huge headache, because corporate cons love immigration, in large part exactly because it does put those people out of work and replaces them with a very low wage, highly vulnerable, highly exploitable labor pool. This is the classic game of diving the working class in half and playing one side against the other for the crumb in the middle. The guys who win the battle will fight to preserve the system because they are, just barely, holding on through it. Nobody at the subsistence level can dare to revolt against the whole thing in order to force higher wages for everyone. Therein is the creation story of socialism.
So, the guys who matter to the RNC -- the guys who cut the checks -- want immigration, while a huge chunk of the base doesn't. Up muntil now the RNC has been able to blame the Dems, and the Dems have taken that and run with it because Yay Diversity Pants Party!!11!1.
But along comes Sanders, and let's call it Sandersism -- the idea that populist unease with immigration can be territorial and economic but not racist. If Sandersism, with or without Doc Brown, ever starts to take root among the Dems, the Republicans' whole con is exposed and their captive white working class voters will know just exactly what they have been played for. Heck, at the rate Trump is going he may just tell them himself.
And how ya gonna keep the folks down on the "cut taxes on the wealthy, free the entrepreneurial spirit" plantation then?
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Um. Except it was Clinton who, ya know, campaigned on it.
But, to be fair, in general the left has fought to expand welfare to entitlements because welfare is unpopular. People vote for programs which they benefit from. That's why rich people get to cash social security checks they don't need. Because middle class people wouldn't fully fund a social security system that was purely an insurance program for elderly indigence. We could have a fully funded unemployment, retirement, health care, child care, and educational system for poor people in this country if we taxed everybody and means tested at about twice the poverty line.
But we don't, in large part because of the incessant, booming, Old Testament judgment of "deserving" / "undeserving" that thunders down from the pulpit of conservativism (amplified significantly by an employer class that needs poverty to spur people to fight each other for low wage labor, regardless of whether it traps them in multi-generational poverty).
Um. Except it was Clinton who, ya know, campaigned on it.
But, to be fair, in general the left has fought to expand welfare to entitlements because welfare is unpopular. People vote for programs which they benefit from. That's why rich people get to cash social security checks they don't need. Because middle class people wouldn't fully fund a social security system that was purely an insurance program for elderly indigence. We could have a fully funded unemployment, retirement, health care, child care, and educational system for poor people in this country if we taxed everybody and means tested at about twice the poverty line.
But we don't, in large part because of the incessant, booming, Old Testament judgment of "deserving" / "undeserving" that thunders down from the pulpit of conservativism (amplified significantly by an employer class that needs poverty to spur people to fight each other for low wage labor, regardless of whether it traps them in multi-generational poverty).
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busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Fair point. I have been known to do it myself. ;-)
Fair point. I have been known to do it myself. ;-)
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
And Obama campaigned the he would get us out of Iraq, Afghanistan, blah, blah, blah. They all seemed to work out equally well.
busterman62
I got a pocket full of kryptonite
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
Croupier: Your winnings, sir.
unofan
Well-known member
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
https://youtu.be/yTwpBLzxe4U
"I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anyone help me out? No." - Craig T. Nelson
https://youtu.be/yTwpBLzxe4U
"I've been on food stamps and welfare, did anyone help me out? No." - Craig T. Nelson
mookie1995
there's a good buck in that racket.
Re: Campaign 2016 - I'm Biden my time till I doctor the hearing.
Kep, I really do admire your devotion to Sanders even though I have fun with it on occasion,
but where we disagree is in the idea that a logical based appeal to these people who feel society has left them behind will work. Being a conservative nowadays isn't like being one 40 years ago, which are the people from the past that Sanders might appeal to. Being conservative is a state of mind, not an ideology anymore. That's how you get people to vote on things based on emotion, and for things that go against their interests, or at the very least have nothing to do with their interests. IMHO you recall the conservatives of your youth and project that onto the current crop, when I believe the cons of your youth or either dead or left the GOP awhile ago.
Kep, I really do admire your devotion to Sanders even though I have fun with it on occasion,
but where we disagree is in the idea that a logical based appeal to these people who feel society has left them behind will work. Being a conservative nowadays isn't like being one 40 years ago, which are the people from the past that Sanders might appeal to. Being conservative is a state of mind, not an ideology anymore. That's how you get people to vote on things based on emotion, and for things that go against their interests, or at the very least have nothing to do with their interests. IMHO you recall the conservatives of your youth and project that onto the current crop, when I believe the cons of your youth or either dead or left the GOP awhile ago.- Status