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Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

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Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I think I agree with Ann. It can be done. After all, the Plutocrat-ring-kisser convinced what was a solid blue state to vote for him. I think you overestimate the electorate.

FTFY.

Walker isn't a plutocrat. He's not rich enough. He IS, however, one of their shills.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

FTFY.

Walker isn't a plutocrat. He's not rich enough. He IS, however, one of their shills.

Not to be that guy, but to be a "plutocrat" you don't need to be rich, you just need to be devoted to the principle that wealth ought to be political power. In that, the 1% have found in the GOP an entire party whose policies work towards that. The idea that money is somehow intrinsically "moral" -- that it represents hard work as distinct from luck or theft -- and thus that it ought to be rewarded with a greater say in public policy, goes all the way back to Protestant theories of the elect, and is related to an even older idea that property is a sort of distillation of noble character.

Those ideas may seem laughable in a global economy where the richest people are precisely those people who have done nothing productive, and on the contrary are among the most destructive individuals on the planet as far as impoverishing and exploiting other humans, but there is a certain personality type with which they still resonate. While the 1% knows very well these are obsolete concepts, they deploy them deliberately to keep those folks not just in line, but also actively working to prop up an unfair system. They are plutsymps, to coin a term, and you can hear them dutifully regurgitating their programming in every comment section on the internet.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I think I agree with Ann. It can be done. After all, the Plutocrat convinced what was a solid blue state to vote for him. I think you overestimate the electorate.

Ann doesnt want Walker for President because she knows he cant win. She is right if you get all the white vote you have a shot but he cant do that and really no one can. Mittens got close and he still was defeated pretty easily.

And please stop tilting the windmill about Wisconsin electing him, Minnesota elected T-Paw twice it means nothing in the general. Walker wont flip Wisconsin, he wont flip Minnesota and if he wants to cut the minimum wage he isnt flipping any of the purples either. It is a loser talking point that only appeals to big business and if the Dems play it right will be his version of "the 47%". The GOP has already alienated the Blacks and Latinos...im not sure they understand how stupid they are playing this.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Ann doesnt want Walker for President because she knows he cant win. She is right if you get all the white vote you have a shot but he cant do that and really no one can. Mittens got close and he still was defeated pretty easily.

And please stop tilting the windmill about Wisconsin electing him, Minnesota elected T-Paw twice it means nothing in the general. Walker wont flip Wisconsin, he wont flip Minnesota and if he wants to cut the minimum wage he isnt flipping any of the purples either. It is a loser talking point that only appeals to big business and if the Dems play it right will be his version of "the 47%". The GOP has already alienated the Blacks and Latinos...im not sure they understand how stupid they are playing this.


I think this is a point that is missed too often. The problem with Walker, etc is that they're taking positions on issues that the country in general strongly disagrees with. No longer can you pull a Richard Nixon and switch positions from primary to general election. When Walker's position is to ban abortions even in the cases of rape or incest, and he's trying to pass that into law, he can't run away from that during the debates and he's going to get creamed on national TV. Bush Jr was able to walk the fine line by saying he personally believed in Talibanesque social policy but woudn't impose that on others. Perhaps he didn't although I'm not sure if he passed any laws in Texas to that end. Walker for one has actually passed these laws, so he owns it and as I often tell people, it ain't 1980 anymore. Its a far more liberal electorate showing up in Presidential years.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Ann doesnt want Walker for President because she knows he cant win.

I think you misunderstand Coulter. She, like the entire right-wing irritainment industry, wants the GOP to lose. Business is much better when you can be irresponsible and just Monday morning QB every issue, all the while insisting the sitting administration is metaphorically or literally, depending on your audience, the Anti-Christ.

The worst thing that can happen to the Noise Machine is gaining office. Then you have to have solutions and the voters hold you accountable. As long as you're on the sidelines, you can pout and scream and the money keeps pouring in.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I think this is a point that is missed too often. The problem with Walker, etc is that they're taking positions on issues that the country in general strongly disagrees with. No longer can you pull a Richard Nixon and switch positions from primary to general election. When Walker's position is to ban abortions even in the cases of rape or incest, and he's trying to pass that into law, he can't run away from that during the debates and he's going to get creamed on national TV. Bush Jr was able to walk the fine line by saying he personally believed in Talibanesque social policy but woudn't impose that on others. Perhaps he didn't although I'm not sure if he passed any laws in Texas to that end. Walker for one has actually passed these laws, so he owns it and as I often tell people, it ain't 1980 anymore. Its a far more liberal electorate showing up in Presidential years.

That's why the polls showing popularity among GOP candidates is very different than GOP candidates compared to Hillary. Trump and Walker show up at/near the top when compared to other GOP candidates. But when compared to Hillary, Bush is the only one in the stratosphere.

And even though Obama's popularity is between moderately and very negative...he would mop the field if he could run again.

I think you misunderstand Coulter. She, like the entire right-wing irritainment industry, wants the GOP to lose.

Funny how that mirrors the GOP's skill set. They are extremely valuable as an opposition party. But have yet to show they can effectively implement quality policy on their own. I believe there are two reasons for this...they are obsessed with social issues and they hate government.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Funny how that mirrors the GOP's skill set. They are extremely valuable as an opposition party. But have yet to show they can effectively implement quality policy on their own. I believe there are two reasons for this...they are obsessed with social issues and they hate government.

They don't hate government as much as they want to clear the path so their paymasters can have maximum freedom, at the expense of everyone and everything else. They are perfectly willing to use government to do that, as when they lard the military budget or use police tactics to harass protest against the 1%.

The GOP says, at root: "everyone should be free to punch anybody they want." The largest bullies love this and hail it as "freedom." Anybody who raises the obvious objection that this nullifies the freedom and safety of everyone else is shouted down as "socialist."
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Not to be that guy, but to be a "plutocrat" you don't need to be rich, you just need to be devoted to the principle that wealth ought to be political power. In that, the 1% have found in the GOP an entire party whose policies work towards that. The idea that money is somehow intrinsically "moral" -- that it represents hard work as distinct from luck or theft -- and thus that it ought to be rewarded with a greater say in public policy, goes all the way back to Protestant theories of the elect, and is related to an even older idea that property is a sort of distillation of noble character.

Those ideas may seem laughable in a global economy where the richest people are precisely those people who have done nothing productive, and on the contrary are among the most destructive individuals on the planet as far as impoverishing and exploiting other humans, but there is a certain personality type with which they still resonate. While the 1% knows very well these are obsolete concepts, they deploy them deliberately to keep those folks not just in line, but also actively working to prop up an unfair system. They are plutsymps, to coin a term, and you can hear them dutifully regurgitating their programming in every comment section on the internet.

I get that, but can you really be a true believer (not the trendy way we use those words on this forum, but an honest-to-God believer) in the "merits" of plutocracy if you yourself don't stand to inherit any actual power?
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I get that, but can you really be a true believer (not the trendy way we use those words on this forum, but an honest-to-God believer) in the "merits" of plutocracy if you yourself don't stand to inherit any actual power?

Tens of millions of poor rural whites have answered that for you in the last 40 years.

John Dickinson, from 1776: "Don't forget that most men with nothing would rather protect the possibility of becoming rich than face the reality of being poor. And that is why they will follow us!"
 
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Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Tens of millions of poor rural whites have answered that for you in the last 40 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7K9k84R5ok

Right, but I'm not sure they understand plutocracy much less know how to pronounce it. They elect people "CUZ, MURCA!" and they are being told the Democrats are coming for their guns and bibles. They don't vote because they think the Kochs and Soros of the world should actually run the country.

If they actually understood that they were being rabble-roused on fairly silly issues as a ruse to shift power to the true plutocrats, they wouldn't vote for them. But, alas, intelligence is not a strong suit of the South.


(God this post is condescending)
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Right, but I'm not sure they understand plutocracy much less know how to pronounce it. They elect people "CUZ, MURCA!" and they are being told the Democrats are coming for their guns and bibles. They don't vote because they think the Kochs and Soros of the world should actually run the country.

If they actually understood that they were being rabble-roused on fairly silly issues as a ruse to shift power to the true plutocrats, they wouldn't vote for them. But, alas, intelligence is not a strong suit of the South.

Based on how my conservative coworkers talk, I disagree strongly. These are lower middle class to middle class guys, the ones who Reagan et al. screwed without lube, and to a man they dutifully recite Republican economic platitudes. They're thinking about their shiftless brother in law, or those shadowy figures in the city on the evening news, and they're thinking "I get up and work every day. My salary is a measure of that work. That money *is* moral." And they're right. They don't know that past a certain point money doesn't work that way anymore -- it's just a mathematical value for keeping score in a huge casino, where the bettors own the House and don't bet their own money, pay themselves first when they win and make sure everyone else's investment is exhausted when they lose. And should the losses ever be so great that they might have to dip into their own pocket, they cry that this will Destroy The World, and bribe the government to take out public debt to cover their losses. When their debts finally bankrupt the state, they impose austerity as "stern medicine" and so complete the hat trick of fuuucking the middle class: the opportunity cost of the original tax revenue losses, the debt payments, and then the austerity cuts.

This is NOT about being stupid or smart, it's about being aware of how the rules change for the rich. Plutosymps falsely analogize international financial and sovereign debt to kitchen microeconomics. Who can blame them? That's how they think money works, and the 1% flood local libraries with Atlas Shrugged and pundit panels with David Brooks to brainwash them to maintain that fiction. You can even hear it repeated here, where people really ought to know better.
 
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Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

They don't hate government as much as they want to clear the path so their paymasters can have maximum freedom, at the expense of everyone and everything else. They are perfectly willing to use government to do that, as when they lard the military budget or use police tactics to harass protest against the 1%.

The GOP says, at root: "everyone should be free to punch anybody they want." The largest bullies love this and hail it as "freedom." Anybody who raises the obvious objection that this nullifies the freedom and safety of everyone else is shouted down as "socialist."

Probably. But IMO they are vocally and publically behaving to their constituency...which more hates government.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

I think this is a point that is missed too often. The problem with Walker, etc is that they're taking positions on issues that the country in general strongly disagrees with. No longer can you pull a Richard Nixon and switch positions from primary to general election. When Walker's position is to ban abortions even in the cases of rape or incest, and he's trying to pass that into law, he can't run away from that during the debates and he's going to get creamed on national TV. Bush Jr was able to walk the fine line by saying he personally believed in Talibanesque social policy but woudn't impose that on others. Perhaps he didn't although I'm not sure if he passed any laws in Texas to that end. Walker for one has actually passed these laws, so he owns it and as I often tell people, it ain't 1980 anymore. Its a far more liberal electorate showing up in Presidential years.

If it was a normal primary they MAYBE could...but when there is 15 people all vying for the nomination it is going to be one big game of King of the Hill and everyone will see it and re-tweet it in real time. Walker can appeal to the Plutocrats as much as he wants but they will be the only ones voting for him. They dont have the numbers to offset the minority vote and the youth vote no matter how much money they burn through.

Now, if he was charismatic or had a gimmick he might have a shot. He doesnt...in fact he is probably the best representation of boring, white Republicans of all time. Christ he looks half asleep when he talks. He wont inspire people with speeches...he will bore them to sleep while Hillary shows ads of how he destroyed Wisconsin.
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Kep I feel you're dealing with a generational issue more than the end of the Republic. Coming from a white working class family myself and having my earliest memories of the late 70's, these people simply put blamed Carter and Dems for every bad thing happening to them even if those things had their roots in events that took place long before. They bought into the promise of Reagan and the defense spending and deficit fueled economy thereafter, and have never wavered from that. It could be a baby boomer thing, but that whole martyr complex (I'm the only one working, I'm the only one paying taxes, I'm the only one who has morals, etc) syndrome has been capitalized on beautifully by the GOP. Only problem is these people are dwindling as the overall share of the voting public, which is why their party has been outvoted in 5 out of 6 Presidential elections (and soon to be 6 out of 7 - unprecedented since FDR/Truman's day).
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

In about 6 months I bet Kep starts hitting the panic button Scooby style. He will start buying what the media is saying and how a new Republican Revolution is coming. ;)
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

It could be a baby boomer thing, but that whole martyr complex (I'm the only one working, I'm the only one paying taxes, I'm the only one who has morals, etc) syndrome has been capitalized on beautifully by the GOP.

That's hardly just a Boomer thing. We typically call it "old age".
 
Re: Campaign 2016 -- Don't Let the Perfect Become the Enemy of the Good

Kep I feel you're dealing with a generational issue more than the end of the Republic. Coming from a white working class family myself and having my earliest memories of the late 70's, these people simply put blamed Carter and Dems for every bad thing happening to them even if those things had their roots in events that took place long before. They bought into the promise of Reagan and the defense spending and deficit fueled economy thereafter, and have never wavered from that. It could be a baby boomer thing, but that whole martyr complex (I'm the only one working, I'm the only one paying taxes, I'm the only one who has morals, etc) syndrome has been capitalized on beautifully by the GOP. Only problem is these people are dwindling as the overall share of the voting public

No. I hear it from their kids, too. I think you ignore that narrative at your peril, because it really speaks to middle income people. Ironically, the recession, which should have taught the exact opposite lesson, only reinforced it, because they knew so many people who were out of work and thus, in their blinders, "parasitic." Of course, the moment they lose their own job the scales fall from their eyes, but by then it's too late.

But the Boomers, Xs, and Millenials are essentially the same old Model T that's always been. The superficiality of change comes from the ground conditions when they grow up: so we have seen first racists, then sexists, and now homophobes slide down the razor blade into the tub of death based strictly on the bigotries that were hip when they were young. But it's not as if any given person in any generational cohort was any more enlightened than their parents. They just breathed different poisons as children.

If anything I think young people have been exposed to a colder, more atomized and less socially cohesive environment growing up, as the great tearing of social fabric that capitalism imposes just gets worse and worse with each decade. With that loss of cohesion comes a loss in the willingness to fight for communal values that transcend individual self-interest. In that regard, the Reaganites did win a permanent victory: they destroyed the community, left the broken pieces as prey to the commercial monsters who have swooped in since, and ironically then blamed the anomie that followed on the liberals who had tried to stop them. I do not see any way to ever repair that. Peoples do not become more communal unless they face an existential crisis, and we are insulated from anything approaching the level of self-reflection required by our technological and entertainment pacifiers.
 
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