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Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

MinnesotaNorthStar said:
My count:

GOP: 33 yes, 38 no, 1 abstain
DFL: 40 yes, 19 no, 1 abstain

Republicans seemed more against it then the Dems were.
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You're both right. The Democrats in the legislature supported it more but the bill would have failed without Republican votes.
 
aparch said:
Re: Public Funding.

On the flip side of the debate though, is when the private owner of a team is looking to finance renovations and give a shot in the arm to the ball club only to be held hostage by his city Alderman and next door neighbors. The fight to repair Wrigley Field has been ongoing since the Ricketts family bought the team from the Chicago Tribune a few years back. This season, they announced plans for a left field video board, additional sponsorship signage, a sky-walk behind the third base side, and a brand new hotel and entertainment complex in the dirt parking lot next to Wrigley Field. The rooftop owners, local business owners, neighboring residents, and the alderman for the Lakeshore district ward all told the Ricketts to pound sand, he couldn't update a "National Historical Place such as Wrigley."

Neighboring suburb cities such as Rosemont (most serious of the bunch), Tinley Park, and all of DuPage County offered up land for the Ricketts family to build a new "Wrigley" Field and as much hotel/entertainment space as they wanted. Rosemont really pushed hard now that they have their own entertainment district right next to the Tollway and O'Hare airport.



I haven't read the latest reports of the new Wings Stadium, but I had thought the initial plan was to be paid in majority (51%+) by Ilitch with the rest coming from the State of Michigan? And by State of Michigan, I mean zero dollars coming from the City of Detroit other than any tax money the city already paid to the State? Did the financing change recently?
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Haven't been following Wrigley situation but I've seen rampant NIMBYism before. I got a kick of of neighborhood residents who didn't want rock concerts at Fenway because they didn't like hearing all the noise and traffic...this in a stadium that's over 100 years old! Maybe you shouldn't have moved there then idiots.

The Detroit financing is one of those complicated deals that taxpayers end up taking it in the shorts over when the new facility inevitably doesn't generate the revenue it claims it will. Its sorta like when someone builds a casino in town and claims 5M jobs and 1T in tax revenue. Then when that doesn't happen they come back and say "well we need to serve booze 24/7 and legalize prostitution, etc".

I believe Indianapolis had a similar problem of signing a deal where tax payments via new economic activity would pay for the stadium. When those didn't come through, the city/country residents maybe had to make good on the obligations of the bonds that were issued. Its a losing game and the people who put together the presentation are pros at it.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

MinnesotaNorthStar said:
My count:

GOP: 33 yes, 38 no, 1 abstain
DFL: 40 yes, 19 no, 1 abstain

Republicans seemed more against it then the Dems were.
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Absolutely they were. But nobody expects the Dems to look out for tax payers best interests. The Dems are classic tax and spend and make no apologies.

The Republicans could have shut that joke of a stadium bill down, but chose not to. The best argument I've heard for the pro-stadium group, is "Well it's about time we spent some money on the rich!"
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Its not that I fault politicians for wanting to "do something". Building a stadium must seem like a tangible sign of progress. I will also say that the people pitching the stadium are most likely far smarter than the pols who are voting on it! I could also live with a break-even deal over say a decade's time (as in the state ponies up 100M but gets 10M a year back ignoring time value of money for a minute).

I tend to support TIF agreements. However, ya gotta crunch the #'s. Hartford and Connecticut were offering a billion dollars to the Pats owner. They were going to build the stadium for him 100% of the costs and guarantee a sell-out by purchashing all unused tickets for the next 30 years! :eek: All this for a venue that has 8 games a year and would be built in a dump of a city (Hartford).

In more recent times, Rhode Island ponied up 75M in loan guarantees for Curt Schilling to start a videogame company that he couldn't get venture capital financing for. This for a company who's CEO had zero experience in the industry. Obviously it went belly-up and now the state is on the hook. Ridiculous.

What I'm most curious about is this $1B impact over 30 years over this deal. One billion is a nice, neat, easy to remember number the consultant came up with. Is it really 1B? How did they come up with that amount? Is it in real or nominal dollars which makes a big difference? Also, is this above and beyond what the Joe contributes, or is it not net of losing the old stadium's contribution?
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Greyeagle said:
Wayne State University, or, as my MI co-workers call it, The Detroit Knife & Gun Club.
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The Knife and Gun Club is Detroit Receiving Hospital, which is largely staffed by Wayne State faculty/med students, not the University itsef.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

A story from the inside at Detroit describes how a lack of managerial accountability exacerbated their other problems.

Since Detroit declared bankruptcy on July 18, the city's crippling problems with corruption, unfunded benefits and pension liabilities have gotten the bulk of airtime. But equally at fault for its fiscal demise are the city's management structure and union and civil-service rules that hamstring efforts to make municipal services more efficient....Almost every day, a problem would arise, a solution would be found—but implementing the fix would prove impossible.

[For example,] The obvious solution for a cash-tight operation is to triage vendor payments to ensure that absolutely essential items are always there. But in Detroit, no one inside the transportation department could direct payments to the most important vendors. A bureaucrat working miles away in City Hall, not responsible to the transportation department (and, frankly, not responsible to anyone we could identify), decided who got paid and who didn't. That meant vendors supplying noncritical items were often paid even as public buses were sidelined.

[additional examples follow]

The last thing Detroit needs is a bailout. What it needs is to sweep away a city charter that protects only bureaucrats, civil-service rules that straightjacket municipal departments, and obsolete union contracts. A bailout would just keep the dysfunction in place. Time to start over.
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A Wall Street Journal article that blames the unions? Knock me over with a feather.
 
Priceless said:
A Wall Street Journal article that blames the unions? Knock me over with a feather.
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I was thinking the same thing.

Detroit fascinates me more than it probably should because it speaks to an interesting problem, which is how to places that have crashed reinvent themselves? So righties want to blame say unions for Detroit. Okay, but why is Baltimore a hell hole? I don't think its union dominated. Or the entire state of Mississippi? How about Kentucky?

Detroit has the same problem its home state does, which is the decline of manufacturing in this country has decimated places that don't rely on a "knowledge" economy for their tax revenue. That's the A #1 problem. Not every state or city can be a tech hub. Or a financial center. Those places by and large already exist, and for whatever reason seem to be holding onto their advantage (think Seattle, SF, NY, Boston, DC, Austin). I don't have a good solution or I wouldn't be here talking to you people but rather I'd be cashing large checks as a consultant. However, busting unions isn't the answer any more than putting up 15 casinos is. If it was the places that have passed anti-union legislation (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc) would be leading the nation in job growth. Instead they're near the bottom.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Rover said:
I was thinking the same thing.

Detroit fascinates me more than it probably should because it speaks to an interesting problem, which is how to places that have crashed reinvent themselves? So righties want to blame say unions for Detroit. Okay, but why is Baltimore a hell hole? I don't think its union dominated. Or the entire state of Mississippi? How about Kentucky?

Detroit has the same problem its home state does, which is the decline of manufacturing in this country has decimated places that don't rely on a "knowledge" economy for their tax revenue. That's the A #1 problem. Not every state or city can be a tech hub. Or a financial center. Those places by and large already exist, and for whatever reason seem to be holding onto their advantage (think Seattle, SF, NY, Boston, DC, Austin). I don't have a good solution or I wouldn't be here talking to you people but rather I'd be cashing large checks as a consultant. However, busting unions isn't the answer any more than putting up 15 casinos is. If it was the places that have passed anti-union legislation (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc) would be leading the nation in job growth. Instead they're near the bottom.
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I don't need to ask you how you'd fix the problem, as you've already mentioned it, such as downsizing the city and effectively starting over (at least I think that was you). Second, your spin on the Taft-Hartley Act is quite amusing. It doesn't prohibit unions, it simply prohibits them from monopolizing the work force; no obligation to join. Third, the law of unintended consequences occurs on both sides of the coin, hence one of the reasons I mentioned it was not the unions directly, but rather a combination of them and those that gave into the union's outlandish and impossible-to-execute demands. Perhaps it's time to start closing the loopholes and actually put something forward that can be executed.

Next time a union comes up with something outlandish and strikes when they don't get it, let them strike and then hire in their place. Once they're ready to work again they can come back (after all that's per contract), then immediately put together a layoff involving a direct proportion of union and non-union workers. That'll weed them out.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Rover said:
I was thinking the same thing.

Detroit fascinates me more than it probably should because it speaks to an interesting problem, which is how to places that have crashed reinvent themselves? So righties want to blame say unions for Detroit. Okay, but why is Baltimore a hell hole? I don't think its union dominated. Or the entire state of Mississippi? How about Kentucky?

Detroit has the same problem its home state does, which is the decline of manufacturing in this country has decimated places that don't rely on a "knowledge" economy for their tax revenue. That's the A #1 problem. Not every state or city can be a tech hub. Or a financial center. Those places by and large already exist, and for whatever reason seem to be holding onto their advantage (think Seattle, SF, NY, Boston, DC, Austin). I don't have a good solution or I wouldn't be here talking to you people but rather I'd be cashing large checks as a consultant. However, busting unions isn't the answer any more than putting up 15 casinos is. If it was the places that have passed anti-union legislation (Wisconsin, Indiana, etc) would be leading the nation in job growth. Instead they're near the bottom.
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Baltimore (like most of the state) is a democratic stronghold. Our dear tax and spend and "running for VP in 2016" governor used to be Mayor of Baltimore. Willy Don Schaefer was Mayor of Maryland and Governor of Baltimore (he was effective).

The Baltimore jail is a run not by the state but by the gangs. A whole bunch of female guards got preggers by the chief inmate in charge and are happy about it. The current governor was shocked, SHOCKED, that this happened.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Well, Detroit can't even complete a modern jail facility for Wayne County, as the already over-budget project keeps spiraling out of control, so Baltimore has that going for them.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/local_...16-million-in-increases-on-construction-costs

Saw an article that Dan Gilbert wants to buy the partially-completed site and convert it into his next entertainment/retail project. The city & county would presumably rehab the existing jail facilities, which would allegedly save money.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Well, with Bob Ficano in charge, that only means they'll come in $20 mil over budget instead of $90 mil.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Priceless said:
A Wall Street Journal article that blames the unions? Knock me over with a feather.
Click to expand...

Obviously you didn't actually read the article, since it did not blame the unions; it blamed the city's work rules. Granted, union work rules were among them, but the problem was a more widespread, generalized lack of accountability and control.

Frankly, your whole obsession with "blame" is a bit sad. What's the point of "blaming" anyone in a mess like this?

The article said:
1. Identify the problem
2. Formulate a solution
3. Implement the solution

It described how # 3 wasn't possible given the structure of government. The "blame" for the unions was very very small.
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Hammer said:
Well, with Bob Ficano in charge, that only means they'll come in $20 mil over budget instead of $90 mil.
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He's just as slimy as the rest of them in Detroit. The man should be tarred and feathered and run out of the country on a rail. But Windsor would probably send Detroit a bill to clean up for him there, so let's just settle for Toledo.
 
FadeToBlack&Gold said:
Well, Detroit can't even complete a modern jail facility for Wayne County, as the already over-budget project keeps spiraling out of control, so Baltimore has that going for them.

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/local_...16-million-in-increases-on-construction-costs

Saw an article that Dan Gilbert wants to buy the partially-completed site and convert it into his next entertainment/retail project. The city & county would presumably rehab the existing jail facilities, which would allegedly save money.
Click to expand...

No offense to Dan Gilbert who seems to be willing to put his own money into Detroit, but what exactly is a retail/entertainment complex going to accomplish when people have no money? Not to harp on this, but wasn't that the point of the three casinos?

Reminds me of visiting an old mill city next to my hometown a few years back. They tore down an old textile mill to build another Hope Depot. While I didn't expect the textile mill to start back up again, I had to ask if the city really needed another Home Depot in a place with double digit unemployment. Who exactly was going to shop there if the whole city was broke?
 
Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Admittedly, I did laugh at one of the comments on that op-ed piece:

"I'd start with the caption - If Barack Obama had a city, it would look like Detroit."

Also, Steven Crowder was raised in Quebec, so he can * off. :D


Rover: The 'burbs do have some money. Oakland County is one of the wealthiest in the country, despite the local unemployment rate. But I get your point, no one actually living IN the city has money, unless you're in one of the old-timey mansion neighborhoods like Boston-Edison or Indian/English Village.
 
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Re: Call Detroit. Tell them bankrupt!!!

Rover said:
No offense to Dan Gilbert who seems to be willing to put his own money into Detroit, but what exactly is a retail/entertainment complex going to accomplish when people have no money? Not to harp on this, but wasn't that the point of the three casinos?

Reminds me of visiting an old mill city next to my hometown a few years back. They tore down an old textile mill to build another Hope Depot. While I didn't expect the textile mill to start back up again, I had to ask if the city really needed another Home Depot in a place with double digit unemployment. Who exactly was going to shop there if the whole city was broke?
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It's possible to turn a shopping complex into a destination complex, bringing in money from outside the local area. The developers did just that with the Mall of America in Bloomington, MN. Granted, most intelligent locals now avoid that place as it's simply too big, but for some reason people show up there to shop from all across the globe. It's a little startling and sad, actually.
 
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