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Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

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SJHovey said:
I didn't think any money was going out?
Click to expand...

So just heard an interesting bit on CNBC. They were interviewing Alan Rosen of Rosen Cheesecakes in NYC. He requested almost six million dollars to cover his five restaurants that are shut down and employees currently laid off.

He received over one million for one location, and he is waiting for the checks for the other four locations (already received approval). Yes, he requested a loan for each location.

Of the currently laid off 650 employees, he is not planning to reopen his restaurants until late June or early July. So none of those employees would return to work until then.

But 'he has the PPP loans,' you ask! Yes, he does. And his understanding of the rules (and for the record, I've heard similar) is that 75% of the money must go to employees for the loan to be forgiven. The remaining 25% can be used for overhead, and for any non-payroll expenses he needs to use for restarting his restaurants. So, he's set up separate bank accounts for employees and for overhead, and he will be drawing down from the overhead for rent, utility, etc.

The other account, the 75% employee payroll account, will remain untouched until he restarts his restaurants and re-hires his employees (or hires new staff to match the number of pre-shutdown employees). Then, and only then, will his employees see the efforts of the stimulus loan as he pays their wages from *that* account until its exhausted.

Yep. That loan we were told was to go to keeping employees on the payroll? Rosen says if he did as assumed and recalled all his employees to get paid to sit around waiting for the restaurant to reopen, the account would be exhausted by late May, meaning he would have to lay off the employees again before reopening.



I will say I'm not completely upset over this, but hearing the quiet part said out loud has a bit of shock to it.
 
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Re: Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

Handyman said:
Nice try. The problem wasnt that money wasnt going out it was that the rollout was a mess (and rushed) and it was so underfunded that quite a few small businesses arent getting the amount they need. (well below the number the plan was supposed to give them) The morons guessed wrong on how many people would need it and here we are. And the banks want nothing to do with this at all because they almost certainly arent going to make a dime off it.

But I mean...sure the plan is great. That is why small businesses arent in any trouble anymore amirite?
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Keep moving those goalposts.

All you did was whine about how the application process was a mess, and then once we found out there were thousands of applications submitted your complaint was that the banks were screwing this up in conjunction with the SBA, and now once we find out that literally billions of dollars have been paid out your complaint is there wasn't enough money. :rolleyes:
 
SJHovey said:
Keep moving those goalposts.

All you did was whine about how the application process was a mess, and then once we found out there were thousands of applications submitted your complaint was that the banks were screwing this up in conjunction with the SBA, and now once we find out that literally billions of dollars have been paid out your complaint is there wasn't enough money. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, *BOTH* of you are right.

The rollout was a mess.
Large banks favorited certain applicants over others, despite previous banking relationships.
Small banks sat on applications unsure of how disbursement works.
Obviously there were people who didn't have issues.
According to CNBC, this week is going better than last week.
Obviously there are businesses are unsure of how to apply it themselves so they're requesting extra money.
 
Re: Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

aparch said:
So just heard an interesting bit on CNBC. They were interviewing Alan Rosen of Rosen Cheesecakes in NYC. He requested almost six million dollars to cover his five restaurants that are shut down and employees currently laid off.

He received over one million for one location, and he is waiting for the checks for the other four locations (already received approval). Yes, he requested a loan for each location.

Of the currently laid off 650 employees, he is not planning to reopen his restaurants until late June or early July. So none of those employees would return to work until then.

But 'he has the PPP loans,' you ask! Yes, he does. And his understanding of the rules (and for the record, I've heard similar) is that 75% of the money must go to employees for the loan to be forgiven. The remaining 25% can be used for overhead, and for any non-payroll expenses he needs to use for restarting his restaurants. So, he's set up separate bank accounts for employees and for overhead, and he will be drawing down from the overhead for rent, utility, etc.

The other account, the 75% employee payroll account, will remain untouched until he restarts his restaurants and re-hires his employees (or hires new staff to match the number of pre-shutdown employees). Then, and only then, will his employees see the efforts of the stimulus loan as he pays their wages from *that* account until its exhausted.

Yep. That loan we were told was to go to keeping employees on the payroll? Rosen says if he did as assumed and recalled all his employees to get paid to sit around waiting for the restaurant to reopen, the account would be exhausted by late May, meaning he would have to lay off the employees again before reopening.



I will say I'm not completely upset over this, but hearing the quiet part said out loud has a bit of shock to it.
Click to expand...

I'm not 100% certain about the timing of the use of the payroll money.

I believe that by June 30 you have to have your payroll figures back to where they were on the comparison date, which I think is February 15, 2020.

On the other hand, I've been told (including by my banker) that once the money is paid to the business, the eight weeks for use of the payroll money starts ticking. That is why he asked me when we wanted to close on the loan, since that would start the clock. That representation also kind of conforms to what I read in some articles about the loan program that talked about this not being a great loan for businesses that are unlikely to open again in eight weeks.

Here is a link to the Treasury department short summary, and you'll see in the section on page 3 regarding loan forgiveness they talk about the amount you use for payroll, rent and utilities "over the 8 weeks after getting the loan." That kind of sounds to me like what my banker is talking about.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf
 
SJHovey said:
Here is a link to the Treasury department short summary, and you'll see in the section on page 3 regarding loan forgiveness they talk about the amount you use for payroll, rent and utilities "over the 8 weeks after getting the loan." That kind of sounds to me like what my banker is talking about.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf
Click to expand...
Thanks!

I'm just parroting what I hear, some of you are in the deep of this dealing with it first hand.

I had also heard the eight week clock, but not sure how having state mandated shutdowns would effect that.
 
Re: Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

SJHovey said:
Keep moving those goalposts.

All you did was whine about how the application process was a mess, and then once we found out there were thousands of applications submitted your complaint was that the banks were screwing this up in conjunction with the SBA, and now once we find out that literally billions of dollars have been paid out your complaint is there wasn't enough money. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Moving goalposts...please. All I have said is how big of a mess the thing is since Day 1. You cant move the goalpost if everything you say is literally the same. Or is it your contention that things can only be screwed up in one way? Me naming different things that go wrong at different times isnt moving the goalposts.

Oh and just cause I wanted to see...I went back to the old thread to see what I said. I said PPP was a cluster because no one was ready and BoA customers were ticked off they couldnt get loans unless they owed BofA money. (that was the fight with Rover) Is it your contention that isnt true because if most of the major banks dont even have the application process ready that would seem to be a problem. (that was my comment about the "application process being a mess" ) I also told the story of my buddy being told by his personal banker not to apply for PPP (btw he also called it a mess...are the bankers moving the goalposts as well?) or anything beyond the basic bridge loan because the bank wasnt going to accept it. 3 hours after that his bank said they were not doing any more PPP for the time being,, though the banker said most likely not ever again. (thankfully he has other resources) That goes all the way back to April 2nd when you brought up PPP in the thread. If I missed something I apologize but nowhere did I say anything about no one getting money at all which was your smartass reply to the tweet I posted and apparently where my goalposts started moving. All of my posts were about how screwed every aspect of this was and still is in some spots.

I am happy it worked out great for you, and after a month or so will probably work out for quite a large portion of people. I am not backing off my contention that the roll out was a dumpster fire though I will admit the banks should take a backseat on blame to Treasury so I will mea culpa that one. (though I wont go as far as Rover does) I will also say I have been lax in saying they have been pretty good at putting the fires out on the fly which is definitely commendable. If they hadnt rushed everything, those fires would have never existed in the first place.

edit: I am not a small business owner so I have zero dog in the fight.
 
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Re: Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

Handyman said:
edit: I am not a small business owner so I have zero dog in the fight.
Click to expand...

You might also admit that you have zero knowledge in this fight as well! :D I'm always amused by all the people out here who apparently could be making serious coin as the CEO of a major bank but prefer instead to work lower wage jobs and spend their days on this message board. ;) Its sorta like all the budding right wing epidemiologists we have on the Covid thread who apparently have the know how to tell Dr. Fauci how to do his job. :eek:
 
Re: Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

Rover said:
You might also admit that you have zero knowledge in this fight as well! :D I'm always amused by all the people out here who apparently could be making serious coin as the CEO of a major bank but prefer instead to work lower wage jobs and spend their days on this message board. ;) Its sorta like all the budding right wing epidemiologists we have on the Covid thread who apparently have the know how to tell Dr. Fauci how to do his job. :eek:
Click to expand...

I never said I could do a better job than the banks could...I said BofA was being stupid but so were a lot of their long time customers. I know you get off on being like a total ***** but I even said in the post you just quoted that I was wrong and more blame should go to Treasury than the banks. Just because I dont give them a total pass like you do doesnt prove the point you think it does.

Hell I dont even blame the banks for not wanting to be a part of PPP. (though I think it is bad PR if they choose not to) Giving away a bunch of money to businesses that might not be able to pay them back and making no money off them...not exactly something I would want to do if I ran a bank.

Oh and lets not pretend you arent the KING of talking out of your *** about stuff...
 
Re: Business, Economics, and Taxes: Capitalism. Yay? >=(

SJHovey said:
I'm not 100% certain about the timing of the use of the payroll money.

I believe that by June 30 you have to have your payroll figures back to where they were on the comparison date, which I think is February 15, 2020.

On the other hand, I've been told (including by my banker) that once the money is paid to the business, the eight weeks for use of the payroll money starts ticking. That is why he asked me when we wanted to close on the loan, since that would start the clock. That representation also kind of conforms to what I read in some articles about the loan program that talked about this not being a great loan for businesses that are unlikely to open again in eight weeks.

Here is a link to the Treasury department short summary, and you'll see in the section on page 3 regarding loan forgiveness they talk about the amount you use for payroll, rent and utilities "over the 8 weeks after getting the loan." That kind of sounds to me like what my banker is talking about.

https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/PPP--Fact-Sheet.pdf
Click to expand...

Honestly, as much as we go back and forth, I don’t envy your position. This **** is complicated and didn’t have any need to be. Good luck.
 
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