Business, Economics, and Taxes 2: That's Why We Fight to Take the Means Back

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Statistically the US probably doesn't have a greater distribution of stupid people, but as Slap said, it does have a ton of both institutional and willful ignorance. Said ignorance is directly related to the, "I've got mine, fuck the rest of y'all" attitude that is uniquely bred into more white Americans than any other nationality.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

I wouldn't put down Dick Cheney, I'd freeze him for a really bad day to fight other smart-vicious people. Or for, you know, entertainment.

Quick, now's your chance!

 

[SJHovey]

For the tax breaks. Remember that most farmers are multi millionaires- the average farm land price in Iowa is a little over $10k, so just 100 acres means that a farmer has a million dollars of just farm land. Add the house, all the equipment, etc, The average farm size in Iowa is about 350 acres, so the average farm is worth north of $3.5M.

Add to that they get special taxes already, and get special rules for bad years, etc- it's good money to be a farmer. No idea why they thought the gravy train would continue when they wanted a trade war, turn off USAID, and eliminate the poor customers turning off SNAP.

But these are the rich or at least pretend rich that makes "business" people appeal to them. The dumb thing is that the only realistic complaint that I can see of democrats is the new run off rules- which is to prevent ruining the very land and water systems they rely on. Oh, and I forget that they are the #1 user of illegal immigration for labor- so they want to keep that as cheap as possible, so they think making them *more* illegal will give them the power to pay them less and treat them less human. That's really why immigration will never be fixed. We can even ignore resorts like marylago that uses illegal immigrants as actual slave labor.

(BTW, having the ability to either use land as collateral or sell it is REALLY powerful financially- so the fact they they say they are cash poor is just gaslighting)

A couple of things about this.

First, the average farm size in Iowa may be about 350 acres, but I would guess that the median farm size is quite a bit smaller. There are some big farm operations, and they are going to skew the number up, when comparing it to a traditional "family farm."

Second, I agree that having collateral that you can borrow against is a useful and powerful tool, but I don't think for most of them it's going on, for a couple of reasons. For most farmers, this is the extent of their collateral. If they are farming their land, each spring they need to spend a bunch of money on inputs, and they will almost always finance it because it's not exactly easy to just write a $250,000 check. Then they clear it when selling outputs.

There are certainly farmers who are leveraging the value of the land they own as they try to make their operation bigger. These farmers fall into two categories: Those who are successful in growing their farm into a huge operation, and those who get over extended and end up bankrupt. But these are a very small subset of farmers.

Also, as investments go, farmland has at best a "modest" return. It's a decent hedge against inflation, but....

Take your 350 acre farm. If you rent out the land, you'll get $275-300/acre. From your $100,000 in rent income, you'll have to pay income tax. You'll also have property taxes of about $30,000 or so.

And they aren't going to sell the land because of capital gains tax. Even if no one in the family is going to farm the land, they'll sit on it until they die, then the kids sell it and reap the reward.

 

[MichVandal]

A couple of things about this.

First, the average farm size in Iowa may be about 350 acres, but I would guess that the median farm size is quite a bit smaller. There are some big farm operations, and they are going to skew the number up, when comparing it to a traditional "family farm."

Second, I agree that having collateral that you can borrow against is a useful and powerful tool, but I don't think for most of them it's going on, for a couple of reasons. For most farmers, this is the extent of their collateral. If they are farming their land, each spring they need to spend a bunch of money on inputs, and they will almost always finance it because it's not exactly easy to just write a $250,000 check. Then they clear it when selling outputs.

There are certainly farmers who are leveraging the value of the land they own as they try to make their operation bigger. These farmers fall into two categories: Those who are successful in growing their farm into a huge operation, and those who get over extended and end up bankrupt. But these are a very small subset of farmers.

Also, as investments go, farmland has at best a "modest" return. It's a decent hedge against inflation, but....

Take your 350 acre farm. If you rent out the land, you'll get $275-300/acre. From your $100,000 in rent income, you'll have to pay income tax. You'll also have property taxes of about $30,000 or so.

And they aren't going to sell the land because of capital gains tax. Even if no one in the family is going to farm the land, they'll sit on it until they die, then the kids sell it and reap the reward.

So the "poor family farmer" is a myth. Thanks.

They have options to make money and get loans- it's not hard at all for them to not only survive, but live without real worry about where the next meal comes from. Hardly people who need SNAP. Their workers, on the other hand, are some of the poorest on the planet- but we can't confuse the two.

Your examples are just that farms are businesses- you keep up with the investments and profit, or you don't. Just like any other business.

As for the farm rental- income tax from farm rental property is lower than normal income tax, and even with the property tax, it's still very passive income that is very protected from bankruptcy. Let alone, who gets the bail out money for farming? There is a lot of that, too.

And I laugh at the idea that people wont sell because of capitol gains taxes- if you need the money, you sell. Again, the fact that you OWN the property gives you massive economic leverage to do many things. 350 acres is $3.5 M of net worth. Cry me a river that they are struggling investments, it's still $3,5M. Let alone the long term capitol gains tax rate is lower than the income tax rate. That's absurd people would not sell just because of taxes if they need it.

BTW, according to an Iowa State census, 56% of farms in Iowa are over 100 acres, meaning over half of the farms in the state are worth at least $1M. So JUST IN LAND value, 56% of Iowa farmers are worth more than $1M. That's more than the median, BTW. Compare that with the median US net worth of just under $200k- the median Iowa farmer is at least 5x more wealthy than the average American.

So there's no "poor family farmer".

 

[Slap Shot]

Virtually no one is not selling because of capital gains just like virtually no billionaire would avoid making more money if the highest tax brackets received higher tax rates.

 

[Handyman]

There's a difference between being actually stupid (incapable of learning) and willfully ignorant. Not sure why any of you think the U.S. has more 'stupid' people than most other countries.

As I say that this is stupid...

Barchart (@barchartofficial) on Threads

BREAKING 🚨: U.S. Banks FED just did it again! Another $24 Billion injection into the U.S. Banking system 🤯 Make that $125 Billion over the last 5 days 🤑

www.threads.com

Because we have destroyed our education system over the last 20-30 years. The policies of Dubya and Obama (and some before them) completely borked public education. I have seen it personally.

We havent prepared the last two generations (nor the current one) to be productive members of society or how things function.

The fact that we helped them become willfully ignorant by indulging their apathy and turning schools into diploma factories is proof we are stupid. And it wasn't just Republicans. (Though they are mostly responsible)

 

[SJHovey]

You inherit a farm from your parents 30 years ago. Your basis is maybe $2-2500/acre. You're 75 years old. The land is worth $10,000/acre. I guaranty you they aren't selling. Not when they can leave it to the kids and the kids will get a stepped up basis.

 

[ticapnews]

My offer still stands to anyone who thinks taxes are unfair: I'll pay your taxes for you and you pay my taxes. Just sign over all your assets to me and you can have all of mine.

In over two decades not a single person has taken me up on this generous offer to relieve them of their tremendous tax burden...

 

[Handyman]

At this point we are all suckers if we pay taxes at all...

 

[MichVandal]

You inherit a farm from your parents 30 years ago. Your basis is maybe $2-2500/acre. You're 75 years old. The land is worth $10,000/acre. I guaranty you they aren't selling. Not when they can leave it to the kids and the kids will get a stepped up basis.

Well, that's THEIR problem. Tell you what- if they don't want to pay taxes to the US, maybe the US should not send tax dollars to them.

They have wealth, it's their choice to sit on it or not. The fact that they have the CHOICE to sell or not very much says that their means are quite strong to survive and are hardly a "poor family farmer."

 

[Kepler]

Well, this post didn't age well..... In fact, it did not age at all!

I welcome the credit.

 

[ticapnews]

At this point we are all suckers if we pay taxes at all...

Some people aren't filing this year but they also aren't posting about it on the Internet, or encouraging anyone else to break the law. Like downloading movies or getting a discount when you use the self-service checkout at the grocery store. That would be wrong and no one should ever do it.

 

[Kepler]

Quick, now's your chance!

Au contraire. Too late.

 

[SJHovey]

Well, that's THEIR problem. Tell you what- if they don't want to pay taxes to the US, maybe the US should not send tax dollars to them.

They have wealth, it's their choice to sit on it or not. The fact that they have the CHOICE to sell or not very much says that their means are quite strong to survive and are hardly a "poor family farmer."

I'm not arguing that someone who owns 350 acres of farmland is "poor." That's just silly. Honestly, I don't ever recall a farmer describing himself as poor, and I've been around farmers my entire life.

But you also pretty clearly don't understand the rural or farm mindset. A farmer with 350 acres doesn't sit there and think, "Oh, I own $3.5 million in land. I'm a multi-millionaire."

The land is just passing through their hands, from one generation to the next, as it has for 150 years. The mindset is literally, "I can't sell it. It's been in the family for 150 years." They just take the income from it during their time here on earth.

I understand this because I am literally living it. On both my paternal and maternal side of my family, we own land in North Dakota. This is land that has been in my family since it was homesteaded in the 1880's.

My grandfather, who died in his 60's in 1972, was a farking pharmacist. A Hovey hasn't tilled the earth since before the Depression. Yet it is beaten into you, from day one, that this is the "family farm," and the family farm cannot be sold. It is passed from one generation to another, each of us reaping the 2% annual return.

I get it. It's a completely foreign concept to someone who grew up in Minnetonka or some place like that. It makes no sense, but it is very real, and it is the mindset that exists.

 

[MichVandal]

I'm not arguing that someone who owns 350 acres of farmland is "poor." That's just silly. Honestly, I don't ever recall a farmer describing himself as poor, and I've been around farmers my entire life.

But you also pretty clearly don't understand the rural or farm mindset. A farmer with 350 acres doesn't sit there and think, "Oh, I own $3.5 million in land. I'm a multi-millionaire."

The land is just passing through their hands, from one generation to the next, as it has for 150 years. The mindset is literally, "I can't sell it. It's been in the family for 150 years." They just take the income from it during their time here on earth.

I understand this because I am literally living it. On both my paternal and maternal side of my family, we own land in North Dakota. This is land that has been in my family since it was homesteaded in the 1880's.

My grandfather, who died in his 60's in 1972, was a farking pharmacist. A Hovey hasn't tilled the earth since before the Depression. Yet it is beaten into you, from day one, that this is the "family farm," and the family farm cannot be sold. It is passed from one generation to another, each of us reaping the 2% annual return.

I get it. It's a completely foreign concept to someone who grew up in Minnetonka or some place like that. It makes no sense, but it is very real, and it is the mindset that exists.

Why should society in general give a crap?

It's no different than if one of your grandparents bought some land, put a building on it, and made money from it. And then that building was passed down through generations. Or if your grandparents started a small business that one of your parents took over, and now you need to split it between all the kids - who may or may not be interested in running it.

Farms are small (or large) businesses. No different than anything else. Actually, there is a difference- back in the 1880's, society agreed to give you the land with specific conditions that have been met for a long time, I'm sure. So your value was given to you by the American society- you are welcome for that. Congratulations for the free big step up that almost all American's don't have.

It should not be a burden to society that the owner thinks they can't use the capitol that has been made over the years- that's just an individual business decisions.

I knew a person who died with a LOT of money in the bank when they died- and just refused to use it. The only real "difference" is the perception that the kids want to farm the land as opposed to just letting it move onto someone else.

You are making 2% without doing a single thing. You are so very blessed over 90% of the American people, it's not even funny. There's no way you can convince me that it's kind of burden in your life.

So farmers are generally very wealthy, and it's their individual or family choice to use it or not. But that doesn't stop them from being millionaires, and thus with a massive advantage over most Americans.

 

[Slap Shot]

Because we have destroyed our education system over the last 20-30 years. The policies of Dubya and Obama (and some before them) completely borked public education. I have seen it personally.

We havent prepared the last two generations (nor the current one) to be productive members of society or how things function.

The fact that we helped them become willfully ignorant by indulging their apathy and turning schools into diploma factories is proof we are stupid. And it wasn't just Republicans. (Though they are mostly responsible)

To me there's still a difference between "stupid" and "under-educated" and I have no idea how my kids nor so many of their friends have managed to figure it out so far.

 

[Kepler]

To me there's still a difference between "stupid" and "under-educated" and I have no idea how my kids nor so many of their friends have managed to figure it out so far.

TBF the finest minds aren't educated by a system, they teach themselves. The problem with red states is they pull up the ladder for the vast middle and leave all the daily Joes as ignorant cowards who will do anything for The Lord. Just as the powerful in those states intend.

The right-wing sabotage of education is not a bug, it's a feature. The class that has engineered it are highly educated. They know exactly what they are doing. They are creating powerless serfs to use as vote labor so they can keep stealing from the public treasury. Reagan's gift keeps on giving.

 

[Handyman]

Some people aren't filing this year but they also aren't posting about it on the Internet, or encouraging anyone else to break the law. Like downloading movies or getting a discount when you use the self-service checkout at the grocery store. That would be wrong and no one should ever do it.

I already lost my job because of things i said on the internet...not too worried if the IRS comes calling. Not sure they have the time or resources though last I heard they agreed being transferred to Immigration.

(For the record I never said I want going to pay...just that only suckers will. I might be a sucker)

 

[Handyman]

There's a difference between being actually stupid (incapable of learning) and willfully ignorant. Not sure why any of you think the U.S. has more 'stupid' people than most other countries.

As I say that this is stupid...

Barchart (@barchartofficial) on Threads

BREAKING 🚨: U.S. Banks FED just did it again! Another $24 Billion injection into the U.S. Banking system 🤯 Make that $125 Billion over the last 5 days 🤑

www.threads.com

Meant to post this last night in response...

Banks hate getting infusions of money like this. (They fought against it in '08 until Treasury basically threatened them) It makes them look weak amongst other things. If The Fed is throwing money at them The Fed does not like what they are seeing.

It could be nothing but doing this publicly makes me think The Fed is worried about either a run on the bank or more likely mounting bankruptcies coming to a head.

 

[unofan]

150+. And it was all deliberate. The landowners realized the gig was up and desperately needed to divide their Poors. And they had a perfect method.

I don't know WTF the Prairie's excuse is, though. Just as hateful, just as stupid, just as poor, and for what? Not a lot of blacks in Iowa.

Nationalization of politics. It's almost easier because we're lily white. 'Those people' are stealing your tax dollars. The replacement of local newspapers with Fox News has really hurt in the county seat cities like Dubuque, Mason City, etc that used to be the blue dots in red areas thanks to the lawyers, hospitals, teachers, etc. Those are the places that elected Obama twice and have gone full derp since.

And since 80% of our ag is corn and soy which can be harvested by machine, the impact of the immigration crackdown really only hits the pork industry in any significant way.