BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

[buoldtimer]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

To me its more talent than depth, unless we're using those interchangeably. BU has enough guys who won't embarass themselves out there, but what we're missing is top of the line talent. Over the long haul, talent will win out ("hard work beats talent unless talent works"). The Bruins-Blackhawks Stanley Cup is great example. Once Bergeron went down the two best players on the ice played for Chicago. It took awhile, but eventually those guys killed the B's while people like Lucic still struggled to hit an open net.

I like how hard the team works, but watching BC forwards continually weave around BU players and then zip tape to tape passes to a wide open player on the goalie's weak side was disturbing to say the least. I don't see that getting better with the people we have now, so these high profile recruits had better be able to skate, shoot, and pass with the best of 'em and not be 3rd line grinders.

Amen to that.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

To me its more talent than depth, unless we're using those interchangeably.

A highly successful, sustainable program needs both. Some years one has high-end talent but no depth; other years you have a deep team but not enough game-breakers.

Last year's BC team is great example of the former. 2 years of subpar recruiting (by BC standards) resulted in not enough depth behind Gaudreau, Mullane, Whitney, Arnold and Hayes. Those "subpar" players who were playing 2nd/3rd line minutes last year are now 4th liners or out of the lineup b/c of the influx of talent from this year's BC Freshmen class. When last year's BC defense got decimated by injuries, they didn't even have 5 healthy d-men on some nights. This year, with their glut of talented Freshmen d-men, 1 of their regulars (Doherty) is the 7th d-man; another (Sullivan) cut from the team.

We've seen some BU teams the past decade or so that had forward depth, but amongst the 3rd/4th line grinder types. Those types of players are valuable if they're playing within their role. However, a lack of talent/skill is exposed when a team has those types playing 1st/2nd line minutes and on the PP out of need.

 

[Rover]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

I believe more of the latter. I also believe the original plan was for Kelley to play Juniors this year, then arrive at BU in Fall 2014. IMO, 2 trickle down effects of a program hit hard by unexpected early departures or dismissals are:

- players are brought in a year early out of need
- its often too late in the recruiting cycle/process to adequately replace unexpected departures

Another way of looking at BU's lack of depth is the current Senior class started out as the following in Fall 2010: Cisse, Clendening, Coyle, Gill, MacGregor, Nieto, Noonan, Ronan.

I can appreciate the difficulty but all schools deal with this. Players leave early all the time be it to go pro, over sexual assault beefs, etc. You've got to constantly refresh. I can understand a down year, but that's it. I don't think any of the accelerated arrivals would have been world beaters have they been able to play for their former teams for one more year.

 

[claver2010]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

A highly successful, sustainable program needs both. Some years one has high-end talent but no depth; other years you have a deep team but not enough game-breakers.

Last year's BC team is great example of the former. 2 years of subpar recruiting (by BC standards) resulted in not enough depth behind Gaudreau, Mullane, Whitney, Arnold and Hayes. Those "subpar" players who were playing 2nd/3rd line minutes last year are now 4th liners or out of the lineup b/c of the influx of talent from this year's BC Freshmen class. When last year's BC defense got decimated by injuries, they didn't even have 5 healthy d-men on some nights. This year, with their glut of talented Freshmen d-men, 1 of their regulars (Doherty) is the 7th d-man; another (Sullivan) cut from the team.

We've seen some BU teams the past decade or so that had forward depth, but amongst the 3rd/4th line grinder types. Those types of players are valuable if they're playing within their role. However, a lack of talent/skill is exposed when a team has those types playing 1st/2nd line minutes and on the PP out of need.

BINGO.

This year's FR class has been a game changer. Their skill is obvious but their ability to play at this level at such a young age is huge. 6 of the top 11 on the team in points are FR, and the youngest player in the NCAA is 3-0-1 with a sub 2 GAA with those 4 games being against 2 in the top 10 and all in top 22.

Last year, as you said players were being put in roles that they either weren't ready for or simply couldn't do.

 

[Rogie21]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Did he bring in Chiasson, Megan, Coyle, etc as well? Not sure, just asking.

Trivino was a good player. Not sure if his booze problems presented themselves while he was being recruited. Not sure what anybody saw in Saponari unless he had a better ability to hit wide open nets before he came to BU.

Regardless I agree we're suffering from what appears to be a few classes of lunchbucket players who are playing hard but aside from O'Regan don't seem to be killing it in the talent department.

FWIW--Chiasson, Megan, Coyle, Nicastro and Cisse were all recruited while Quinn was Associate Head Coach. He also recruited Trivino's junior A teammate Ethan Werek, a high-end kid who switched to the OHL. BU began recruiting Nieto while Quinn was there, but he didn't commit until the next fall.

Trivino was a hot commodity in Ontario with many schools chasing him. Can't imagine BU or the Islanders who made him a 2nd round choice in 2008 knew about drinking issues at the time. Saponari was a good, not great scorer with the U18s, 3rd best with 36 points. Putting aside the situation leading to his departure, I'll recall that in his first BU game, he quickly got in the face of the North Dakota player who was shoving Millan. Also his screening Miami's goalie that allowed Cohen's blooper to find the net.

 

[Rover]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Apologies if this has already been posted, but BU article in ESPN:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/notebook/_/page/buccigross_ahockeylife_111313/college-rivalries-more-game

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Well, Quinn became Associate HC and primary recruiter in the fall of 2004. Eventually, the players he recruited won a National Championship. I guess you could ask, "where are the other championships? He was at BU for five seasons". True, but his players did win an NC, which counts for plenty. On the negative side, Trivino, Nicastro, Saponari and Glass were his recruits. It's hard to see that factor as positive. Perhaps, if he'd been at BU during that period, he may have had a positive influence on their behavior. Strictly idle speculation.

It's difficult to say that BU's recruiting hasn't suffered during his absence.

Did you mean to quote me on this? I wasn't being critical of anything Quinn did or has done....

On the subject of recruiting... how many / which of this years freshman were considered "prime" guys to get? I had thought this was supposed to be a great recruiting class (and maybe they will still prove to be as they mature and develop).

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Did you mean to quote me on this? I wasn't being critical of anything Quinn did or has done....

On the subject of recruiting... how many / which of this years freshman were considered "prime" guys to get? I had thought this was supposed to be a great recruiting class (and maybe they will still prove to be as they mature and develop).

I believe Baillargeon, Collier and Somerby may be the only ones who fit the "prime" description. IIRC Baillargeon was originally recruited for 2012-13 but was asked to play another year in the USHL. Conversely, I think there was some back & forth between all involved parties as to whether Kurker and/or O'Regan would play a year in Juniors and delay their arrival til this season.

Roberto fell into BU's lap via the coaching change at Maine plus roster spot available from Nieto turning pro. I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up being the best of the bunch 3 years from now.

 

[ericredaxe]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

I can appreciate the difficulty but all schools deal with this. Players leave early all the time be it to go pro, over sexual assault beefs, etc. You've got to constantly refresh. I can understand a down year, but that's it. I don't think any of the accelerated arrivals would have been world beaters have they been able to play for their former teams for one more year.

All teams do deal with departures yes… but without doing any research I'd guess that the teams consistently at the top of the rankings have less of an issue with it. It certainly seems to be less of an issue with our friends up the street. Are teams that have fewer departures getting kids in who are more committed to the college route? Are the coaches and university doing something different that makes them want to stay? Probably it is a little of both.

Can you imagine what would have happened in 2009 if Gilroy and Wilson had left early? We kept everyone in 2009 and look what happened.

Also, I don't think you should look at it as an extra year in the juniors making the kids world beaters…. but rather look at what happens with the overall dynamic of the team. Take a look at last season for an example. Hypothetically what would the team have looked like if we were consistently dressing Coyle and Clendenning instead of our 12th forward and 6th d-man? I'd guess there would have been quite a difference. Now do that for a few seasons in a row and the difference might be quite dramatic.

Hopefully the departure thing is something that changes as we move forward.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

I believe Baillargeon, Collier and Somerby may be the only ones who fit the "prime" description. IIRC Baillargeon was originally recruited for 2012-13 but was asked to play another year in the USHL. Conversely, I think there was some back & forth between all involved parties as to whether Kurker and/or O'Regan would play a year in Juniors and delay their arrival til this season.

Roberto fell into BU's lap via the coaching change at Maine plus roster spot available from Nieto turning pro. I wouldn't be shocked if he ends up being the best of the bunch 3 years from now.

Conceding that it's not even Thanksgiving yet, but Collier has a steep hill to climb.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Did you mean to quote me on this? I wasn't being critical of anything Quinn did or has done....

On the subject of recruiting... how many / which of this years freshman were considered "prime" guys to get? I had thought this was supposed to be a great recruiting class (and maybe they will still prove to be as they mature and develop).

There were several posts to which I could've responded. Yours was the luck of the draw. Didn't see you as being critical of DQ.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Conceding that it's not even Thanksgiving yet, but Collier has a steep hill to climb.

Agree. Hasn't shown much so far. Wasn't expecting him to make a major offensive contribution, but thought he'd bring more energy on the ice.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Conceding that it's not even Thanksgiving yet, but Collier has a steep hill to climb.

Agree. Hasn't shown much so far. Wasn't expecting him to make a major offensive contribution, but thought he'd bring more energy on the ice.

 

[Rover]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

All teams do deal with departures yes… but without doing any research I'd guess that the teams consistently at the top of the rankings have less of an issue with it. It certainly seems to be less of an issue with our friends up the street. Are teams that have fewer departures getting kids in who are more committed to the college route? Are the coaches and university doing something different that makes them want to stay? Probably it is a little of both.

Can you imagine what would have happened in 2009 if Gilroy and Wilson had left early? We kept everyone in 2009 and look what happened.

Also, I don't think you should look at it as an extra year in the juniors making the kids world beaters…. but rather look at what happens with the overall dynamic of the team. Take a look at last season for an example. Hypothetically what would the team have looked like if we were consistently dressing Coyle and Clendenning instead of our 12th forward and 6th d-man? I'd guess there would have been quite a difference. Now do that for a few seasons in a row and the difference might be quite dramatic.

Hopefully the departure thing is something that changes as we move forward.

Wilson did leave early, and that's largely my point. We can't wait 4 years for these guys to start making an impact. Wilson was an impact freshman and the best player in the country by his sophomore year. Look at the BC example that was cited this year. We need players to come in and ramp up, not by the last semester of their senior year. If that's the case by the time they get up to speed O'Regan and Hohmann will be gone and we'll be back to square one.

This is how you beat the curse of early departures as players get closer to senior year. We can argue about how good we would have been if this player or that player had stayed were it not for booze and women problems but some would have taken off anyway. A good way to look at this is BU in the mid 90's. We won in 95, and after 96 I believe Grier, O'Sullivan, etc left early. However, the team still had enough talent to get back to the Finals, and were it not for Larouque picking the biggest game of his career to have the worst game of his life, we would have won again. He was a frosh, Drury a junior, etc. If we don't ramp up the level of the classes we bring in the team is screwed.

EDIT: I do feel confident that Quinn will get this done. Its more a commentary on how this program really needed a change from what it had been doing the last several years.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

However, the team still had enough talent to get back to the Finals, and were it not for Larouque picking the biggest game of his career to have the worst game of his life, we would have won again. He was a frosh, Drury a junior, etc. If we don't ramp up the level of the classes we bring in the team is screwed.

Laroque was a sophomore that season. He seized the job from Noble during the later stages of the year. He had very little to no chance on three of the NoDak goals that day. Kelleher and Drury made killer turnovers, each of which resulted in breakaway goals. On another goal, three BU players stood outside the crease and watched a NoDak forward scoop up a loose puck and flip it into the net.

 

[buoldtimer]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Wilson did leave early, and that's largely my point. We can't wait 4 years for these guys to start making an impact. Wilson was an impact freshman and the best player in the country by his sophomore year. Look at the BC example that was cited this year. We need players to come in and ramp up, not by the last semester of their senior year. If that's the case by the time they get up to speed O'Regan and Hohmann will be gone and we'll be back to square one.

I've always thought that you know what kind of player a guy will be by second half of the sophomore season. By that measure, Rodrigues and Hohmann are useful players, but not topliners on a team that will win championships. O'Regan? Maybe. BC seems to do a better job of bringing in players who make immediate contributions. It will be interesting to see how players develop under Quinn's coaching.

 

[Rover]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Laroque was a sophomore that season. He seized the job from Noble during the later stages of the year. He had very little to no chance on three of the NoDak goals that day. Kelleher and Drury made killer turnovers, each of which resulted in breakaway goals. On another goal, three BU players stood outside the crease and watched a NoDak forward scoop up a loose puck and flip it into the net.

Larouque let in an awful goal that put ND back in the game on the first one. While I don't blame him for giving up goals on breakaways (that Drury one was brutal) the difference between winning a title and losing one is often your goalie making big stops. BC would be one or two titles up on us, as opposed to even, had it not been for the efforts of Turco and Lerg I believe. IIRC he gave up 7 goals (the 8th I thought was an empty netter). One was Godawful, I don't blame him on the breakaways, and I don't recall the details on the others except the sense I had at the time that he needed to step up on a few of them.

 

[Rover]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

I've always thought that you know what kind of player a guy will be by second half of the sophomore season. By that measure, Rodrigues and Hohmann are useful players, but not topliners on a team that will win championships. O'Regan? Maybe. BC seems to do a better job of bringing in players who make immediate contributions. It will be interesting to see how players develop under Quinn's coaching.

What I'm looking for in O'Regan is a guy that can take over a game. Think Colin Wilson vs Vermont in the FF in '09. So far this year he seems to have regressed a bit but as you say I'd like to see more from him as this season goes along. He can't just be a 30 point guy for us. He needs to be a 20+ goal, 50 points guy.

 

[Terrance]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Wilson did leave early, and that's largely my point. We can't wait 4 years for these guys to start making an impact. Wilson was an impact freshman and the best player in the country by his sophomore year. Look at the BC example that was cited this year. We need players to come in and ramp up, not by the last semester of their senior year. If that's the case by the time they get up to speed O'Regan and Hohmann will be gone and we'll be back to square one.

This is how you beat the curse of early departures as players get closer to senior year. We can argue about how good we would have been if this player or that player had stayed were it not for booze and women problems but some would have taken off anyway. A good way to look at this is BU in the mid 90's. We won in 95, and after 96 I believe Grier, O'Sullivan, etc left early. However, the team still had enough talent to get back to the Finals, and were it not for Larouque picking the biggest game of his career to have the worst game of his life, we would have won again. He was a frosh, Drury a junior, etc. If we don't ramp up the level of the classes we bring in the team is screwed.

EDIT: I do feel confident that Quinn will get this done. Its more a commentary on how this program really needed a change from what it had been doing the last several years.

Do people really believe these recent BU teams haven't had talent or impact freshmen? How many players need to come in and produce at a high level immediately and how often should a team expect to have an all-star freshmen? BU has had plenty of good players come through in recent years. You can't keep comparing everything to BC as if they are some sort of standard. They are an outlier. Especially from two years ago to now. Their best player decommitted from another program and brought them to a national championship which then helped lead to this years recruiting class. If Gaudreau doesn't move from NU to BC, BC does not have the team it has today.

Looking at BU's recent recruits, I can't understand why everyone is acting like they are a group of mediocre spot fillers.

O'Regan (led all freshmen in the league last year in points, though he would have been 2nd if Roy hadn't gotten hurt), Grzelcyk (3rd in points among all defensemen in the league last year), Maguire (Finished 3rd in the league last year in save % and is currently 2nd in the league this year with a .941 save % - that's with half of his games against teams ranked in the top 12), O'Connor (Currently has a .920 save % with 4 of his 5 games against top 10 teams). Oksanen is currently second in the league in points for a defenseman. Sure Rodrigues and Hohmann didn't put up numbers their freshman year, but they sure put up some good numbers last year (34 points each). Last year 3 of BU's top 4 point scorers were freshmen or sophomores (also 4 of the top 6). To me that doesn't seem like a problem with young talent. And again, this team is backstopped by two good to very good sophomore goalies. What this team needs is a top tier upperclassmen goal scorer (or two or three). Someone with confidence and experience who can take control and lead the team. BU hasn't had a senior with more than 31 points since Lawrence, Yip, and Higgins all did it in 2009. That is BU's problem. Not one single above average senior scorer in 4 years. As for this year's freshmen, why don't we give them some time to get up to speed with the college game? They've played 9 games and 6 of those have been against teams ranked in the top 12. BU has had a tough schedule, but they have 2 must win games this weekend. They need to go out and score some goals and get 2 wins. If they lose either of these games then maybe it's time to start questioning how competitive this team can be, but not after 5 of their last 6 games came against highly ranked teams and they played relatively well in all but 1 or 2.

 

[smyler3]

Re: BU 2013-2014: Ready to Quinn

Criminy, aren't we miserable enough enduring the unpredictability of the team's play during this transition year? Now we have to start rehashing that godawful motherf#$%ng 97 championship game? I'm twitching over here thinking about those goals.