Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

[Brown Parent]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Trillium,

I have not been able to do a thorough review of all 25 players' bios that left but it appears that not only were these players accomplished in the classroom, they also excelled on the ice:
-10 players were members of USA Hockey national championship teams
-10 players were part of USA Hockey Development Camps in Lake Placid, multiple times
-6 were team captains at their prep school
-3 received Team MVP awards
-1 or more received multiple ECAC Weekly Player Awards

 

[fan007]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Notfromaroundhere - ya, that's pretty obvious!!!!!

Please read Brown parents' latest post. It is pretty clear that the kids who are no longer on the team have quite impressive athletic AND academic credentials and many have had lifelong commitments to hockey. To suggest that all these kids were less committed to hockey is to completely disregard their history. You are so pro-coach that you cannot even fathom a player's perspective. Perhaps maybe they were too smart for their coaches and decided they weren't gonna take their bullsh*t anymore. If that's the case, good for them! My prediction: this won't be the end of it and there'll at 3 more walks before the end of the year.

 

[Brown Parent]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

I'm rather tiring of all of the team statisticians, coaches, and athletic directors in the stands. If you really want to change hockey at Brown, become involved in the athletic department (making a nice donation would be a good start). One thing I know is true of all Ivies - money talks and more money talks louder. It is no coincidence that the best programs (both athletic and academic) have the most generous supporters.

I am a proud supporter of Brown University and believe in its ideals in the classroom and on the playing field. I also believe in the robust, healthy discourse based on fact and not speculation. And yes, I am a generous donor.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Trillium,

I have not been able to do a thorough review of all 25 players' bios that left but it appears that not only were these players accomplished in the classroom, they also excelled on the ice:
-10 players were members of USA Hockey national championship teams
-10 players were part of USA Hockey Development Camps in Lake Placid, multiple times
-6 were team captains at their prep school
-3 received Team MVP awards
-1 or more received multiple ECAC Weekly Player Awards

OK, I'll play scavenger hunt to show you how meaningless bio stuff is...
- The backup goalie at Utica played for a SSM team that won the National Championship. She has played about 2 periods of hockey at Utica and she is a Junior.
- I can think of several players who went to National Camp multiple times who didn't even attract D3 interest.
- Last year's captain at my daughter's prep school isn't even playing hockey.
- And she got the team MVP award too.
- IIRC Chatham's goalie received ECAC West's POW award.

Point here is that there are lots of players with great resumes at lots of places.

I'm sure these were good hockey players and good students. Just because they left the team and you feeling cheated about her opportunity doesn't mean Brown should fire Digit. Did you think that if these girls were still around, your daughter might not even be on the roster?

 

[fan007]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Notfromaroundhere - ya, that's pretty obvious!!!!!

That's a good point about getting involved. Did you know that for the last 8 years on Alumni Day, Brown Women's hockey couldn't get 6 alumni to play in an alumni game? Also Notfromaroundhere - ya, that's pretty obvious!!!!! - Did you also know that the past members of the women's hockey teams donate the least amount to the school than the alumni of any sport that Brown has to offer. That tells me how much fun those women had playing for Digit - as you call her.

I, too, am a contributor - probably not as much as Brown Parent - but I feel it's significant. LOL.

 

[Hux]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Although some attrition is always inevitable, even in the absence of an exact numerical comparison to other Ivys, 50% early attrition over a 6 year period seems alarmingly high. To me, this number is worrisome and persuasive.

Large rosters made up of a fair number of players better suited to DIII realizing they were not suited to the D1 game is a contributing factor.

 

[BlackWidow]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Large rosters made up of a fair number of players better suited to DIII realizing they were not suited to the D1 game is a contributing factor.

Hux: 8,339 posts and you still don't get it.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Notfromaroundhere - ya, that's pretty obvious!!!!!

Please read Brown parents' latest post. It is pretty clear that the kids who are no longer on the team have quite impressive athletic AND academic credentials and many have had lifelong commitments to hockey. To suggest that all these kids were less committed to hockey is to completely disregard their history. You are so pro-coach that you cannot even fathom a player's perspective. Perhaps maybe they were too smart for their coaches and decided they weren't gonna take their bullsh*t anymore. If that's the case, good for them! My prediction: this won't be the end of it and there'll at 3 more walks before the end of the year.

Definitely not pro-coach, just anti-whiney parent.

Let me ask you all this? How much research did you all do on Digit BEFORE your daughters matriculated?

Now that you are buying into the rinkside gossip, you are looking for data to support your own disappointment with the situation. Let's face it, if Brown were in the top 10 and Digit was doing as she does and players were leaving, nobody would be writing this thread. This whole thread is about losing and how parents deal with it.

In our experience, my daughter has played on a few good teams, and serveral not so good teams. I've talked to the powers that be about what I observed about a coach's activities with suggestions for improvements, without calling for the coach's head.

My daughter has been visiting schools she is interested in attending and playing hockey for. She has talked to coaches, but more importantly, when she can, she goes and watches a coach at a practice to see how s/he interacts with the players and runs the show. We talk to people about how coaches handle situations. We've learned of coaches who throw ex-players under the bus who are quite successful. We do the best research we can, but understand that there are things that we will miss and she will have to deal with. Point here is that winners (in life) do the best they can and accept the consequences of their actions, choices, and sometimes just plain old bad luck. Losers try hard and find someone else to complain about when unfounded expectations aren't met.

That isn't pro-coach. That is pro-personal-development. And that is what hockey is ultimately about.

How many winners do we have here?

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Hux: 8,339 posts and you still don't get it.

Hux knows more about the ins and outs for the D1 programs in the NE area than most on this board.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Definitely not pro-coach, just anti-whiney parent.

Let me ask you all this? How much research did you all do on Digit BEFORE your daughters matriculated?

Now that you are buying into the rinkside gossip, you are looking for data to support your own disappointment with the situation. Let's face it, if Brown were in the top 10 and Digit was doing as she does and players were leaving, nobody would be writing this thread. This whole thread is about losing and how parents deal with it.

In our experience, my daughter has played on a few good teams, and serveral not so good teams. I've talked to the powers that be about what I observed about a coach's activities with suggestions for improvements, without calling for the coach's head.

My daughter has been visiting schools she is interested in attending and playing hockey for. She has talked to coaches, but more importantly, when she can, she goes and watches a coach at a practice to see how s/he interacts with the players and runs the show. We talk to people about how coaches handle situations. We've learned of coaches who throw ex-players under the bus who are quite successful. We do the best research we can, but understand that there are things that we will miss and she will have to deal with. Point here is that winners (in life) do the best they can and accept the consequences of their actions, choices, and sometimes just plain old bad luck. Losers try hard and find someone else to complain about when unfounded expectations aren't met.

That isn't pro-coach. That is pro-personal-development. And that is what hockey is ultimately about.

How many winners do we have here?

We have had a lot of good posts today. This is another one that makes the Five Star rating. Nicely worded, and agree 100%.

 

[fan007]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Definitely not pro-coach, just anti-whiney parent.

Let me ask you all this? How much research did you all do on Digit BEFORE your daughters matriculated?

Now that you are buying into the rinkside gossip, you are looking for data to support your own disappointment with the situation. Let's face it, if Brown were in the top 10 and Digit was doing as she does and players were leaving, nobody would be writing this thread. This whole thread is about losing and how parents deal with it.

In our experience, my daughter has played on a few good teams, and serveral not so good teams. I've talked to the powers that be about what I observed about a coach's activities with suggestions for improvements, without calling for the coach's head.

My daughter has been visiting schools she is interested in attending and playing hockey for. She has talked to coaches, but more importantly, when she can, she goes and watches a coach at a practice to see how s/he interacts with the players and runs the show. We talk to people about how coaches handle situations. We've learned of coaches who throw ex-players under the bus who are quite successful. We do the best research we can, but understand that there are things that we will miss and she will have to deal with. Point here is that winners (in life) do the best they can and accept the consequences of their actions, choices, and sometimes just plain old bad luck. Losers try hard and find someone else to complain about when unfounded expectations aren't met.

That isn't pro-coach. That is pro-personal-development. And that is what hockey is ultimately about.

How many winners do we have here?

Boy has your tone changed since you were called on it, Notfromaroundhere - ya, that's pretty obvious!!!!!

All of my kids are long out of hockey, you're just coming through the program. These kids don't have any expectations except to play women's college hockey, not to be screamed at and humiliated. When you're a junior or senior, and a college coach - especially from an Ivy - comes to talk with ya or just shows an interest, you're walking on clouds. The reality does not always fit the perception once you're there - especially when it's a person like "Digit". Of the kids who were cut or quit, I'm not ready to throw any of them under the bus - too many past posters here who have encountered the same problems. It seems like the ones defending this coach are the ones who've had no dealings with her. You'll see!

 

[BlackWidow]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Hux knows more about the ins and outs for the D1 programs in the NE area than most on this board.

OnMAA: Can you do me a hhhuge favor???? Would you mind asking the all-knowing Hux what happened to Asay, Bishop, Cedorchuk, Crabtree, Hunter, Latimer, Small, Suprey and Winship? Please just ask him/her to tell me why they are no longer on the team? Maybe Hux's answer could end it all with his/her 8,340th post by divulging all "the ins and outs for the D1 programs in the NE area than most on this board", especially as they relate to Brown.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Trillium,
Five of the 9 kids who are no longer on the team were ECAC all-academic during the 2008 or 2009.

They are: Maggie Suprey (Noble and Greenough) and Andrea Hunter (Pomfret) were honored for the second consecutive year, Jaclyn Small (Thornhill Secondary, ON), Julianne Bishop (Noble and Greenough) and Jenny Cedorchuk[/B(Noble and Greenough)].

That kinda blows that theory, wouldn't you say? These kids were everyday players so I doubt the AI theory is even relevant. The kids were exceptional players and exceptional students from exceptional private prep schools (except for Small) - and they're all gone.

These players were all of equal caliber and hardly benefitted from any reduced admissions' standards for their athleticism. You might be confusing Brown with Harvard - if you know what I mean [wink][wink]

It is a well-known fact that the marks and SAT scores required of a recruited athlete to attain admission to ANY Ivy league school are lower than for students applying without a hook. Brown is no different than any of the others in that regard.

The list which was provided of possible reasons why a schools administration might be interested in understanding an unusually high attrition rate over an extended period, were intended merely as a answer to a generic question asked, and certainly not intended as a slight to particular Brown players or speculation as to why they left. Those reasons are frankly none of our business...that's between the players, staff and administration.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Boy has your tone changed since you were called on it, Notfromaroundhere - ya, that's pretty obvious!!!!!

All of my kids are long out of hockey, you're just coming through the program. These kids don't have any expectations except to play women's college hockey, not to be screamed at and humiliated. When you're a junior or senior, and a college coach - especially from an Ivy - comes to talk with ya or just shows an interest, you're walking on clouds. The reality does not always fit the perception once you're there - especially when it's a person like "Digit". Of the kids who were cut or quit, I'm not ready to throw any of them under the bus - too many past posters here who have encountered the same problems. It seems like the ones defending this coach are the ones who've had no dealings with her. You'll see!

Called on what?

I'm not here to praise or bury Digit. I'm here to express my annoyance with folks who don't get what means to live with the results of ones decisions.

My daughter did Digit's camp a couple years back. She found digit to be "a character". Yes, Digit even yells at her campers from time to time. Digit praised my daughter's play at camp and when asked about her potential for D1, Digit suggested that she ask her again in another year (in a promising way - she let many other campers know they were D3 material right up front), but she didn't come home with stars in her eyes. She has no interest in Brown. Not in her objectives. She doesn't come to college hockey with any expectations except to work hard and follow the team rules. She, like any other player doesn't want to watch hockey, but understands that it is a function of how well she meets a coach's expectations.

I've met Digit and talked briefly about girls hockey (not college hockey). Not much to say one way or another about her personally. I have no professional opinion one way or the other about her as a college coach.

Perhaps your daughter will learn a valuable growing up lesson about dealing with people from all of this. Clearly, she misread what she was getting herself into. If she learns how to manage such situations better, it is a valuable hockey lesson and life lesson.

Some people learn from success. Others people learn from failure. And the rest don't learn anything and are likely to repeat the same mistake.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

OnMAA: Can you do me a hhhuge favor???? Would you mind asking the all-knowing Hux what happened to Asay, Bishop, Cedorchuk, Crabtree, Hunter, Latimer, Small, Suprey and Winship? Please just ask him/her to tell me why they are no longer on the team? Maybe Hux's answer could end it all with his/her 8,340th post by divulging all "the ins and outs for the D1 programs in the NE area than most on this board", especially as they relate to Brown.

Why should I ask him.? You are digging for info, but afraid to ask it directly from sources who might know more ? If you really want to know ask him yourself. I'm sure he will have an answer for you. It might not be the one you are looking for.

As another poster already stated earlier, the reason why a player leaves a program prematurely is between the coach/admin and themselves. None of our business.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Definitely not pro-coach, just anti-whiney parent.

Let me ask you all this? How much research did you all do on Digit BEFORE your daughters matriculated?

Now that you are buying into the rinkside gossip, you are looking for data to support your own disappointment with the situation. Let's face it, if Brown were in the top 10 and Digit was doing as she does and players were leaving, nobody would be writing this thread. This whole thread is about losing and how parents deal with it.

In our experience, my daughter has played on a few good teams, and serveral not so good teams. I've talked to the powers that be about what I observed about a coach's activities with suggestions for improvements, without calling for the coach's head.

My daughter has been visiting schools she is interested in attending and playing hockey for. She has talked to coaches, but more importantly, when she can, she goes and watches a coach at a practice to see how s/he interacts with the players and runs the show. We talk to people about how coaches handle situations. We've learned of coaches who throw ex-players under the bus who are quite successful. We do the best research we can, but understand that there are things that we will miss and she will have to deal with. Point here is that winners (in life) do the best they can and accept the consequences of their actions, choices, and sometimes just plain old bad luck. Losers try hard and find someone else to complain about when unfounded expectations aren't met.

That isn't pro-coach. That is pro-personal-development. And that is what hockey is ultimately about.

How many winners do we have here?

Excellent post!!

 

[Dad09]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Point here is that there are lots of players with great resumes at lots of places.

No, the point is that the undergraduate players who left after last season were regular ice time contributors last year and in previous years. They did not earn that on the strength of their resumes, but had shown the definitive ability to play the level to secure a spot in the rotation.

Large rosters made up of a fair number of players better suited to DIII realizing they were not suited to the D1 game is a contributing factor.

Not true of these players.


Also, I'd like to reiterate this statement I made in post number #44:

Let's hope the thread doesn't descend as far as the other one did into comments specifically criticizing the commitment, dedication to the game, and work ethic of the players who left the team.

 

[notfromaroundhere]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

No, the point is that the undergraduate players who left after last season were regular ice time contributors last year and in previous years. They did not earn that on the strength of their resumes, but had shown the definitive ability to play the level to secure a spot in the rotation.

They may have the ability to play the level to secure the spot, but do they produce, and do they have the will or desire to deal with adversity so they can continue producing?

Every player should be of the mind that you are only as good as your last shift and that your next shift may be your last. You earn every shift.

There are plenty of star players who don't play to their potential. If a coach lets one who isn't just glide on by, it will eventually breed underachievement. Don't know enough about the situation at Brown to make that assessment, but it would be a perfectly valid reason to cut a star player or 2 or 3. This isn't club hockey. There is always next year's recruiting class to take your spot if you don't earn it.

I am not pretending to know the specifics as to why these players left Brown nor whether the team would be better off with them. I do have a problem with folks who without having talked to these players individually, nor being a professional (how many experienced hockey coaches are there amongst you?) who can assess their level of play and effort during their last games making judgements as to why there is such turnover and blame their team's results on this turnover.

Can I have some cheese to go with this whine?

 

[Trillium]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

Perhaps your daughter will learn a valuable growing up lesson about dealing with people from all of this. Clearly, she misread what she was getting herself into. If she learns how to manage such situations better, it is a valuable hockey lesson and life lesson.

Some people learn from success. Others people learn from failure. And the rest don't learn anything and are likely to repeat the same mistake.

Again, I agree completely....even if the situation or the personality of one's leader is not what was expected, there is always a way to turn it into a positive if you wish to.

Very early in my career, I had the misfortune of finding myself working for a boss who was basically a female version of Attila the Hun. (No, I am not comparing Digit to her--actually I have met Digit and quite liked her). The point is that it was a very bad situation with a favourable outcome because of attitude. This woman was deliberately cruel to many employees and very difficult to deal with, making the work environment very tense and unhappy for all of us. Rather than grouse about it to my co-workers, or sabotage her with management, I instead decided this was the perfect test and opportunity for me to work on improving my interpersonal skills--if I could develop an amenable relationship with this person against all odds (which would take every ounce of restraint and strength I had in me), I figured I would ultimately be able to work with absolutely anyone. Seeing her in action also helped me learn more clearly what not to do when I became a manager. In that sense, though it was the worst job I ever had, it proved one of my best learning experiences, giving me more confidence and tools to deal with difficult people. And god only knows you will encounter many difficult people and a range of personality types throughout your life.

As they say, when you find that life hands you lemons (as it will from time to time), you can always choose to make lemon pie. Lemon pie is actually one of my favourite foods too

 

[Sweden]

Re: Brown Women's hockey coaching problems

I find it a bit disturbing that there seems to be a hierarchy of credibility whether real or imagined permeating this forum. As it is anonymous, I don't feel anyone who posts here ( myself included ) is above reproach. This is a discussion forum and all participants are entitled to voice their opinion on the subject matter of the thread in question. Claiming one person has all(most) of the answers and that they should not be questioned does nothing to further any discussion. Not taking sides on this one, just throwing that out there.