Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

[Cross Check]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

dunno.... mookie expects a lot of "we're young" excuses again..... peeps waiting for the freshman class to develop and come back strong in 17/18 with the NEW RECRUITS!

We'll see about that. BC showed this year the difference that a group of impact freshmen can make. Putting aside the improvement from several veteran players, that aside, without the impacts of White, Wood, and Casey Fitzgerald, this team would look more like last year's also ran than this year's Frozen Four team.

If all of BU's top incoming guys make it to campus next year (granted, a big if), then the ingredients for a quick and major turnaround are there.

I think a lot of BU fans are quick to forget that you are one year removed from being one late fluke goal away from a National Championship. And this year, though the ending was rough, and the inconsistency I'm sure maddening, according to Pairwise, your team had more quality wins than any team in the nation, so the potential was/is there.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

dunno.... mookie expects a lot of "we're young" excuses again..... peeps waiting for the freshman class to develop and come back strong in 17/18 with the NEW RECRUITS!

The quality of the freshmen, if they all show up, is collectively better than we've ever had come in. I would bet it's one of the most loaded freshman classes that has matriculated at any school ever. I do have lots of concerns about whether there will be the necessary veteran leadership, especially if Somerby doesn't come back. Without him, who's the captain? Robbie is the only senior skater, save Roberto, who has any realistic shot of being on the ice every night next season.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Another close heartbreaking loss on Garden ice... I remember walking out of there that night with a thought in the back of my head that they wouldn't recover from that and the year was effectively over. Hard not to think the PC game hung over their heads for the whole year. At some level, you can't coach that out of their minds.

Another point, they kept talking on the broadcast about how many people we had back from last year's team, yet only two of our top-six forwards and four third- and fourth-liners who started in the PC game were suited up this weekend. Yes, the entire defense was back, but there were some major changes up front to the roster from last year. Add in the Piccinich departure, Letunov not being admitted and you end up with a far different roster than Quinn had seemingly projected for this year. Sub in Olsson, Roberto, Letuonov, and even Piccinich or Greer to our lineup and I suspect we have a far different level of success. No Kelley, Robbie and Cloonan probably sit due to lack of production, Andren and Udahl likely aren't added to the roster, the fourth line of Moran-Phelps-Olsson that was very productive when in tact during the fall can stay together, and Quinn has options of forwards to sub in and out. Realistically, despite guys who weren't producing offensively, Quinn had no options to sub into the lineup at forward by the end of the year. Before we all go throwing Quinn under the bus, it's worth considering all of these roster moves that were largely out of his control and tied his hands in terms of how to respond to poor play down the stretch.

Noe of this is untrue. My only point for the last three weeks has been, either you overcome adversity or you don't. If you have enough character, you do. This team didn't, period. I was roundly criticized (again) for saying there was no leadership. Well, that's what leadership is. "Not recovering" from a game in February over a month later tells me that there either isn't enough character or enough leadership on this team. You can't have it both ways. Again, it's either that or they're just not as good as we thought. I'm not saying we should have beaten Denver, who obviously is rolling and could very well win it all. BUT...that was just embarrassing. I don't think there was another team in this year's tournament who would have been beaten by Denver that badly.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

your team had more quality wins than any team in the nation, so the potential was/is there.

All the more reason why the last three weeks were so perplexing.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

The more I reflect on this year's team, the more I realize this was a team that was difficult to get a pulse on over the last 6 months. I wasn't surprised by their performance and record in the 1st half, but just as I thought they were getting their stuff together in January, their overall body of work since losing the Beanpot was quite surprising/disappointing.

Multiple people I've talked to have questioned the psychological impact losing the NC game the way they did had on this year's team. I don't know if I buy into the long-term effects given the # of games they came back from to win or tie (Northeastern, Providence, Michigan, Cornell, Vermont, Harvard). A mentally "soft" team would not have had the ability to win the 3rd period in those games the way they did in that stretch. Not to mention beating Q-Pac as convincingly as they did on the road.

In January-early February, even though 5 their convincing wins were against UMASS, Maine, Merrimack, they did what they had to with relative ease given the competition. Even after the Beanpot loss, I felt they did what I realistically expected them to do against Lowell & ND (split both series), so I now wonder if it was losing the Beanpot in the way they did, or if it was the ND loss (as Quinn intimated) that knocked the confidence out of this team. If it was the latter, what were the factors for not being able to recover? Coaching? Leadership? Fatigue? More players playing thru injuries than we may ever know?

It's not the loss as much as the cumulative body of work in the postseason that's tough to digest. There was time to rectify things and what we saw on Saturday was worse than anything we'd seen all season.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Noe of this is untrue. My only point for the last three weeks has been, either you overcome adversity or you don't. If you have enough character, you do. This team didn't, period. I was roundly criticized (again) for saying there was no leadership. Well, that's what leadership is. "Not recovering" from a game in February over a month later tells me that there either isn't enough character or enough leadership on this team. You can't have it both ways. Again, it's either that or they're just not as good as we thought. I'm not saying we should have beaten Denver, who obviously is rolling and could very well win it all. BUT...that was just embarrassing. I don't think there was another team in this year's tournament who would have been beaten by Denver that badly.

I agree the leadership down the stretch left a lot to be desired. In fairness, I criticized you because you said the team did not have veterans - that point is not true. But I do agree for the team to fold as it did in the last few weeks of the season raises serious questions about those veteran leaders and how they handled things. Especially considering how, as Bomber noted, resilient they were all year last season and even during the first half of this year in coming back from multiple deficits and NOT folding under similar circumstances. I can count numerous times over 14-15 and early this year where they were scored on first and it energized them, as opposed to the last month where they wilted from one goal.

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

"Not recovering" from a game in February over a month later tells me that there either isn't enough character or enough leadership on this team. You can't have it both ways. Again, it's either that or they're just not as good as we thought. I'm not saying we should have beaten Denver, who obviously is rolling and could very well win it all. BUT...that was just embarrassing.

Something amiss besides for what we saw on the ice b/c this is largely the same roster that pulled off all of those 3rd period comebacks against NU, PC (2X), Michigan, Cornell, Vermont and Harvard. If BU had put forth given a legit effort and got beat by great goaltending/playmaking in a close game, the tone going into the offseason would certainly be a different.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Something amiss besides for what we saw on the ice b/c this is largely the same roster that pulled off all of those 3rd period comebacks against NU, PC (2X), Michigan, Cornell, Vermont and Harvard. If BU had put forth given a legit effort and got beat by great goaltending/playmaking in a close game, the tone going into the offseason would certainly be a different.

Which is also why perhaps there IS some legitimacy to the "something else may have been going on" sentiment. Unfortunately, if that was true, we may never know the real story...

 

[Friend_of_BU_Hockey]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

The quality of the freshmen, if they all show up, is collectively better than we've ever had come in. I would bet it's one of the most loaded freshman classes that has matriculated at any school ever. I do have lots of concerns about whether there will be the necessary veteran leadership, especially if Somerby doesn't come back. Without him, who's the captain? Robbie is the only senior skater, save Roberto, who has any realistic shot of being on the ice every night next season.

The "NHL Factory" comment I made shortly after the game stems from this growing perception I have about the staff over-emphasizing recruiting individual talent rather than finding specific, appropriate pieces to build the right puzzle. 2 analogies I can think of are:

1) I don't want to see BU turn into what Michigan has generally been for a while (a collection of super-talented individuals every year that can't seem to consistently put it together)
2) BU hockey over-emphasizing the 1st round/2nd round NHL picks the way Kentucky basketball under Calipari highlights all of his 1 (or 2)-and-dones who become lottery picks.

It's also like a chef who knows what he wants to cook for his restaurant and consistently sources the best ingredients, yet not everything comes together into great dishes.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

The "NHL Factory" comment I made shortly after the game stems from this growing perception I have about the staff over-emphasizing recruiting individual talent rather than finding specific, appropriate pieces to build the right puzzle. 2 analogies I can think of are:

1) I don't want to see BU turn into what Michigan has generally been for a while (a collection of super-talented individuals every year that can't seem to consistently put it together)
2) BU hockey over-emphasizing the 1st round/2nd round NHL picks the way Kentucky basketball under Calipari highlights all of his 1 (or 2)-and-dones who become lottery picks.

It's also like a chef who knows what he wants to cook for his restaurant and consistently sources the best ingredients, yet not everything comes together into great dishes.

Good points, though at least it has been said the coaches have made comments about understanding the need for developing the four-year veteran leaders as much as the phenom kids. As much as you need the Eichels and Colin Wilsons, to win a championship you need the Luke Popkos and Hohmanns who contribute under the radar things such as penalty killing, faceoff wins, blocked shots, and hustle plays as well as bringing respected leadership to the locker room. Outside of the five (six with Harper?) coming next year considered to be phenoms, there are two more kids as well. We certainly need the likes of Olsson, Robbie, Phelps, and Fortunato, Diffley, and MacLeod if he stays to move into leadership roles along with Doyle and/or Hickey if they stay. I'm not sure Michigan is the right parallel since the knock on them has always been explosive offense with little defense and shaky goaltending. Perhaps Minnesota would be a better comparison - loads of high-talent kids who simply cannot or did not play together. Oettinger is Quinn's first big-time goalie recruit, we'll see what he can do with him.

I also agree with your earlier point about something possibly happening off the ice or in the locker room at some point. I have no idea what, if anything, but the drastic change in their mental competitiveness leaves the door open for speculation.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

The "NHL Factory" comment I made shortly after the game stems from this growing perception I have about the staff over-emphasizing recruiting individual talent rather than finding specific, appropriate pieces to build the right puzzle.

I also expressed this concern. Actually, to me it's not a "growing perception," but something that has been the de facto standard for QUITE some time now. Again...2 national championships in 37 years with "top-level" talent a majority of those years can't really signal anything other than that, can it? 2009 was a case of overwhelming talent, and they still almost didn't win, but for the senior leadership who willed them to victory. And last year (with the benefit of hindsight after a full season has subsequently passed) looks more and more like an aberration due to a once in a generation player. So...we still don't really have any answers and are unlikely to get any for awhile.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

I also expressed this concern. Actually, to me it's not a "growing perception," but something that has been the de facto standard for QUITE some time now. Again...2 national championships in 37 years with "top-level" talent a majority of those years can't really signal anything other than that, can it? 2009 was a case of overwhelming talent, and they still almost didn't win, but for the senior leadership who willed them to victory. And last year (with the benefit of hindsight after a full season has subsequently passed) looks more and more like an aberration due to a once in a generation player. So...we still don't really have any answers and are unlikely to get any for awhile.

Parker's recruiting was not near the "NHL Factory" level that Quinn's has been so the comparisons there are incongruous. Selectively picking a time frame and selectively picking facts about certain teams paints an unfair picture. You could just as easily say the only reason last year's team lost is because of the mother of all lucky bounces, and 09's team won by dominating the last minutes of regulation play and overtime against Miami. Let's not forget BC only squeaked by measly Ferris State in 2012. They were pasted by Colorado College in 2011, pasted by Union in 2013, and then all-world Johnny Hockey AGAIN couldn't beat Union in 2014! How do they keep losing to these bad programs in the NCAA tournament???? DU moped the floor with them last year as well! Five NCAA tournaments in a row, four woeful exits, and one close tournament win over a team they should've pounded into the ground. See how easy it is to twist facts into a false narrative?

The two champsionships in 37 years argument is ridiculous because it ignores how many times they made the championship game and the Frozen Four. Not to mention the 37-year period is incredibly arbitrary, and if you extend it back a few more years, it becomes five in 45 years. Heck, why not look at it as BC has won only four titles in the last 67 years?

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Let's not forget BC only squeaked by measly Ferris State in 2012. They were pasted by Colorado College in 2011, pasted by Union in 2013, and then all-world Johnny Hockey AGAIN couldn't beat Union in 2014! How do they keep losing to these bad programs in the NCAA tournament????

Danny Linell
Michael Sit
Destry Straight

Any questions?

All seriousness though in regard to this discussion, while 4 year guys are important, you are better off avoiding TERRIBLE 4 year guys. Especially if you have some strange fascination with them and keep giving them playing time. Moral of the story, don't have an ooops I forgot to recruit for an entire class Jerry type of moment.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Danny Linell
Michael Sit
Destry Straight

Any questions?

All seriousness though in regard to this discussion, while 4 year guys are important, you are better off avoiding TERRIBLE 4 year guys. Especially if you have some strange fascination with them and keep giving them playing time. Moral of the story, don't have an ooops I forgot to recruit for an entire class Jerry type of moment.

My arguments were only to prove how you could take results, twist some of the facts, add some inferences, and create a narrative of a program that simply is not true. I know very much of what I said was a bastardization of the truth, it was intended to be. And yes, of course those four-year players have to be contributors and not bench-riders. The two examples I used from BU, Popko and Hohmann, were not that whatsoever.

 

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

My arguments were only to prove how you could take results, twist some of the facts, add some inferences, and create a narrative of a program that simply is not true. I know very little of what I said was a bastardization of the truth, it was intended to be. And yes, of course those four-year players have to be contributors and not bench-riders. The two examples I used from BU, Popko and Hohmann, were not that whatsoever.

Oh I wish those 3 were bench riders. Might have been able to do some damage otherwise.

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Heck, why not look at it as BC has won only four titles in the last 67 years?

Because it stimulates discussion...the number of participants on this thread seems to have dropped off significantly from the last few years. I think you know I'm talking about the "competitiveness" of the effort. Yes, you "could" have twisted everything to say what you mentioned; however, there's a difference between playing well all post-season and losing on one bad bounce and how we played THIS postseason. You must agree, do you not, that the last three weeks were an aberration, given how this team has played for the last two and a half years???

All of this assumes, of course, that we understand all of this discussion is within the constraints of the fact that hockey is probably the worst sport to conduct any "one and done" type playoffs because of the way out of proportion impact that a singular event (muffed puck, bad bounce, tip-in, kick-in, subjective penalty at the wrong time) has on the outcome. If someone makes the wrong out-of-bounds call in basketball, so what? It is not going to affect a 87-63 game. But in hockey, ONE such play can change the outcome of an entire season. So, to me, bringing up isolated incidents is inconsistent with the general theme of my post, which is talking about long-term trends. My point was to emphasize the incremental difference that the intangibles make. You have to have a baseline for comparison for the purposes of discussion. No, you can't win every year, but you can work your butt off, like Ferris State, for example, did. You're not going to try to say that our effort was comparable to theirs, are you? As I have said before, it's not the losing that is disturbing...it's the lack of a sense of urgency that is troublesome. When you are sitting there at 2-0 saying "This game is over," that's pretty depressing.

 

[brassbonanza]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Because it stimulates discussion...the number of participants on this thread seems to have dropped off significantly from the last few years. I think you know I'm talking about the "competitiveness" of the effort. Yes, you "could" have twisted everything to say what you mentioned; however, there's a difference between playing well all post-season and losing on one bad bounce and how we played THIS postseason. You must agree, do you not, that the last three weeks were an aberration, given how this team has played for the last two and a half years???

All of this assumes, of course, that we understand all of this discussion is within the constraints of the fact that hockey is probably the worst sport to conduct any "one and done" type playoffs because of the way out of proportion impact that a singular event (muffed puck, bad bounce, tip-in, kick-in, subjective penalty at the wrong time) has on the outcome. If someone makes the wrong out-of-bounds call in basketball, so what? It is not going to affect a 87-63 game. But in hockey, ONE such play can change the outcome of an entire season. So, to me, bringing up isolated incidents is inconsistent with the general theme of my post, which is talking about long-term trends. My point was to emphasize the incremental difference that the intangibles make. You have to have a baseline for comparison for the purposes of discussion. No, you can't win every year, but you can work your butt off, like Ferris State, for example, did. You're not going to try to say that our effort was comparable to theirs, are you? As I have said before, it's not the losing that is disturbing...it's the lack of a sense of urgency that is troublesome. When you are sitting there at 2-0 saying "This game is over," that's pretty depressing.

From an effort and mental toughness standpoint, yes, I agree the last month was an aberration from the rest of Quinn's three years. His first year was marred by injury, departures before and during the season, and the roster simply not being good enough to compete - not his fault. But I never felt like the team quit. Of course last year they had some early-game deficit problems, but they fought back countless numbers of times to erase deficits. You're absolutely right, when DU got their second goal, I think most of us knew the game was more or less over. And that is a pretty crappy feeling. I just don't think you can extrapolate that as far as it has been in a few of these posts.

 

[Rover]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

You're absolutely right, when DU got their second goal, I think most of us knew the game was more or less over. And that is a pretty crappy feeling. I just don't think you can extrapolate that as far as it has been in a few of these posts.

I never, ever, under any circumstances want to see a team quit down 2-0 in the 1st period in a playoff game. I'm not calling for Quinn's head, but this needs to be the absolute last time this happens. Quinn isn't a first year coach. No excuses for something like this to happen. As others have said, I don't mind losing to Denver who seems to be a very good team. Getting the biggest A sskicking thus far in the tournament? Unacceptable.

 

[Bomber]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

And last year (with the benefit of hindsight after a full season has subsequently passed) looks more and more like an aberration due to a once in a generation player. So...we still don't really have any answers and are unlikely to get any for awhile.

Last year's team had too many character wins and big goals from guys not wearing #9 to call the season an "aberration due to a once in a generation player." Again, if they quit down the stretch next year or just flat out under-achieve, we'll talk.

BU Hockey: Factor X Still In Play

 

[chickod]

Re: Boston University 2015-16 thread part 3 - The Postseason

Last year's team had too many character wins and big goals from guys not wearing #9 to call the season an "aberration due to a once in a generation player." Again, if they quit down the stretch next year or just flat out under-achieve, we'll talk.

BU Hockey: Factor X Still In Play

That's true. So unless you're saying NONE of those character guys were back this year, then what happened?