Attendance at NCAA

[CrazyDave]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

I concur with the assessment that there seemed to be very little marketing of the event in the Twin Cities.

I don't know if the following example counts as marketing, per se, but it was a little bit of potential fanfare that didn't show up this year...

The first thing I noticed when I got close to Ridder Arena was that there were no Frozen Four pennants on the street lights along Fourth Street (in front of the arena). The U. of MN pennants that normally hang on the lights were still there -- they hadn't been swapped out.

That compares to 2001, where every streetlight had a FF pennant on it. (I remember that because I was working for the university at the time and saw them every day. I don't remember if they had been changed in 2006.) I also saw the pennants outside Agganis Arena last year.

 

[OnFrozenPond]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

There was so much going on this weekend that it made it difficult to attend everything.

Womens D3 Frozen Four
Womens D1 Frozen Four
Mens Final Five
All Youth State Championship tournaments
Girls State HS Basketball tournament
MN Wild

We tried though. Our family went to the D3 games on Friday, the Girls 12A games on Saturday afternoon, the State Basketball games Saturday night, the Bantam A state championship game on Sunday afternoon.

I think I need today off to recuperate

 

[davinchi]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

There is also the fact that women's hockey just unbelievably boring to watch. I know that comment may start a storm but it is the truth. The only places that get any type of fan support is when there is remarkable school spirit, but they don't go for entertainment value. When you see the best in the world compete for the olympics and it still is maybe only as good as boys midget AA hockey it tells it all. Have you ever seen a packed house for a Boys Midget AA state championship? I rest my case. This may sound sexist but all I really doing is calling it like I see it. If it had entertainment value, people WOULD show up to watch. Women's hockey is more like a novelty. I think title IX has its merit but it needs to be tweaked so that it doesnt have to reflect equality, but rather based on needs of womens athletics. It just wont be equal to mens sports on any level...EVER...not for excitement or entertainment.

 

[WildShawn]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

There is also the fact that women's hockey just unbelievably boring to watch. I know that comment may start a storm but it is the truth. The only places that get any type of fan support is when there is remarkable school spirit, but they don't go for entertainment value. When you see the best in the world compete for the olympics and it still is maybe only as good as boys midget AA hockey it tells it all. Have you ever seen a packed house for a Boys Midget AA state championship? I rest my case. This may sound sexist but all I really doing is calling it like I see it. If it had entertainment value, people WOULD show up to watch. Women's hockey is more like a novelty. I think title IX has its merit but it needs to be tweaked so that it doesnt have to reflect equality, but rather based on needs of womens athletics. It just wont be equal to mens sports on any level...EVER...not for excitement or entertainment.

Women's hockey is no where NEAR as boring to watch as Women's Basketball, how do you explain the fan suppor tthere, since you're an apparent expert?

 

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

Davinchi, you sound like the typical men's hockey fan who's never been to a women's game (I know...you'll say you have, but we both know.) If you show up to a women's game expecting to see a men's game, you're going to be very disappointed. And if I have to explain how men and women are different, it's probably not worth my time to bother.

 

[fanof the game]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

This guy sounds like a similar posted on the Ontario Hockey Forum. Let's put down Women's hockey. blah blah blah. Sorry but the Men's team (made up of professional players) were out to watch the Women's Olympic performance and it sure generates a ton of interest where I come from. Not every day games, but planty of people turn out to watch Provincials, Ontario PWHL teams playing against Team China, pre-Olympics and so on.

 

[ARM]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

If it had entertainment value, people WOULD show up to watch. Women's hockey is more like a novelty.

Where does the entertainment value come from? I think that is different for different people. At the NHL All Star game, you see the best players in the world on the ice. You can't beat it for talent. But is the hockey as good as you'll see in the Stanley Cup playoffs? No, unless the only thing one enjoys is watching the goal light come on.

I enjoy the teamwork. I enjoy the dedication, the effort, the passion. I've talked to a lot of people at women's games who watch a lot of men's hockey. If it is a hard-fought, competitive game, the comment is always the same -- "this is good hockey". I think that people who truly enjoy the game itself, not just the most talented players, will be entertained.

If you show up to a women's game expecting to see a men's game, you're going to be very disappointed.

Exactly. If I go watch the Minn. boys' HS championship game and leave saying, "neither of these teams could beat any NHL team," I'd be right, but so what? They don't have to. They don't play in the same league. Just like Formula-1, NASCAR, Indy-car, and drag racing are all different, so are men's and women's hockey. It isn't always necessary to be biggest/fastest to be interesting.

Personally, I don't watch much auto racing. But then I don't go around looking for auto-racing forums so that I can tell them that their sport is boring either. A lot of people watch golf. You can get round-the-clock coverage on whether or not Tiger Woods will play in a tournament a month away. It surely isn't because there is a lot of entertainment value in watching a guy eat a banana, drink water, lean on a golf club, and then hit a shot every 4 minutes.

 

[D2D]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

I've talked to a lot of people at women's games who watch a lot of men's hockey. If it is a hard-fought, competitive game, the comment is always the same -- "this is good hockey". I think that people who truly enjoy the game itself, not just the most talented players, will be entertained.

This fits me to a "T". I truly do enjoy the game itself, and the more competitive it is and how much effort the players are putting into it, the better.

This past season I attended roughly an equal number of male/female games, from high school to the NHL. And in all honesty, the two NHL games I went to were not at the top of the list, in terms of entertainment value they provided. It was fun to be part of the huge crowds of over 19,000 fans, and it was great to see Sydney Crosby play in person for the first time, but the NHL style in the regular season doesn't get my blood boiling like a hard-fought amateur game does. For the most part the NHL players - even though they are obviously the best in the world - exert themselves only in spurts, and the overall style of play is pretty predictable.

Probably the best hockey game I saw all year, even though it was only on TV , was the World Juniors final between the U.S. vs. Canada. That one had everything a hockey fan could hope for. Also way up there was the mens Olympic final between the same two countries, even though I much preferred the outcome in the first game when they played each other in pool play. The womens Olympic final was also great hockey, with tremendous effort by both teams, and that ranked right up there too. Certainly if it had gone right to the wire it would have been even better; it only lacked the suspense at the end that the mens games had.

Which brings me to the womens NCAA final. Here you had two talented teams going toe-to-toe and all-out for nearly 120 minutes. To say that it was a great game for any true hockey fan would be a gross understatement. The ONLY reason I wouldn't include it in the same list as the above is purely personal - I was fairly neutral in terms of the outcome. I guess for me, rooting strongly for one team or the other adds another level of entertainment.

A lot of people watch golf. You can get round-the-clock coverage on whether or not Tiger Woods will play in a tournament a month away. It surely isn't because there is a lot of entertainment value in watching a guy eat a banana, drink water, lean on a golf club, and then hit a shot every 4 minutes.

Now THAT is funny , even though I do happen to derive a lot of entertainment value out of watching (and playing) golf!

 

[Trillium]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

Where does the entertainment value come from?

You can get round-the-clock coverage on whether or not Tiger Woods will play in a tournament a month away. It surely isn't because there is a lot of entertainment value in watching a guy eat a banana, drink water, lean on a golf club, and then hit a shot every 4 minutes.

I love to play, but it's tough to watch.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

When BU started the women’s varsity program I supported it for 3 reasons:
1. It’s BU hockey
2. I know Coach Durocher personally.
3. My daughter was 3 and I didn't want to ever tell her that we didn’t support the program because it isn’t real hockey.

Back on the subject of Frozen Four attendance, I am all for the separate women’s tournament. However, I think the NCAA should be flexible when it is being hosted in (or near) any city with a men’s conference championship the same weekend. Last year in Boston the semifinals were head-to-head against the Hockey East’s men’s championship and this year in Minneapolis it was head-to-head against the WCHA Final Five. When planning the Frozen Four for last year BU asked if the NCCA would schedule it on Thursday-Saturday to avoid the conflict to try and increase attendance, but the NCAA said no.

I attended the first semifinal before going over to the Garden to watch BU’s men play in their HE semifinal game. I would have liked to see both semifinals, but due to the NCAA’s refusal to change the dates I was not able to. The NCAA appears to think the men’s and women’s fans bases are distinct and separate, but I think they could grow the fan base if they were flexible as to when they scheduled the FF games.

Sean

 

[5 4 Fighting]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

Golf is significantly less entertaining when your like me and take a shot approximatley every 1 minute.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

3. My daughter was 3 and I didn't want to ever tell her that we didn’t support the program because it isn’t real hockey.

Sean

Best reason of all. Congrats.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

The NCAA appears to think the men’s and women’s fans bases are distinct and separate, but I think they could grow the fan base if they were flexible as to when they scheduled the FF games.

Believe it or not, the rationale (as stated in the Sept. 2004 committee meeting) of moving the tournament earlier in the year, effective 2007, was to avoid conflicting with the NCAA men's hockey tournament. But somehow conflicting with EVERY conference tournament wasn't a problem? Still baffles me to this day.

 

[davinchi]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

I guess the responses I got were deserved. Some good points made about entertainment being a relative concept. I still concur that womens hockey just does not bring out fans. If it is so exciting, then please explain why the attendance is so paltry around the board. It is not just a case of marketing. Women's Hockey is just not a sport which will attract fans. What it does attract is some parents, close friends and maybe once in a while, the support of some students who come out for their school. There is no need to get so sensitive when these comments are made...it just is true. Show me some PROOF as to how what I am saying is so wrong. You can give the standard answer how I am just a men's hockey fan etc etc but their is nothing that can back up the claim that it is just a case of marketing the sport better. This leads me to my previous comment on creating equality. To support womens athletics (financially) with the same vigor as mens just doesnt make good business sense. A lot of the men's sports (the popular ones in the US I mean) generate revenue while 95% of womens athletics teams operate at huge losses. Last time I checked, we live in a free market economy where demand and supply dictate the flow of business. If you counter that NCAA athletics are not about money then it truly will be revealed who is ignorant here.

By the way...the men's players who were at the womens game were there to support their country and to make an appearance. Lets be realistic. I went to women's hockey games in college with my team as a show of support but I dont remember more than 2 guys actually who watched the game.

Finally, I have been to my share of womens games believe it or not. DIII and DI. Talking to support staff at the games who were employees of the school, one might be shocked at the amount of jokes being made about how it was like watching paint dry...how it was such a rip off because you pay for the entire seat while only using 10% of it...etc etc

 

[ManBehindTheCurtain]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

To support womens athletics (financially) with the same vigor as mens just doesnt make good business sense.

I want to hear you tell your daughter that the reason why you don't support women's athletics is because "it doesn't make good business sense".

I don't know you, I know not a single thing about you except that I know you don't have a daughter.

Last time I checked, we live in a free market economy where demand and supply dictate the flow of business.

ROFLMAO, good one. Free market, supply and demand, boy, you can't make this stuff up.

 

[gano]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

Women's Hockey is just not a sport which will attract fans. What it does attract is some parents, close friends and maybe once in a while, the support of some students who come out for their school.

Hmmmm.

I am not a parent.

I would not say I am a close friend. I had never even met any player before I started going. (And I assume you mean close friends of the players and/or their families and not close friends with some random person who also has never been to a game, though either way it doesn't really apply to me as I have no fiends. ARM is willing to pretend to be as long as it is only at hockey games and I don't tell anybody.)

I am not a student. And I never have been a student at the school for which I root.

I think I'm just a fan. I maybe in the minority, but that's what I am. I do also watch men's hockey.

The whole high school boys team thing reminds me of when my nephew was 10. He played on a basketball team of 10-year-olds. He loved it. He wasn't very good, but he had fun. Finally I had to take him a side and say, "You could never beat Michael Jordan, you better quit."

 

[dave1381]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

If it is so exciting, then please explain why the attendance is so paltry around the board. It is not just a case of marketing. Women's Hockey is just not a sport which will attract fans. What it does attract is some parents, close friends and maybe once in a while, the support of some students who come out for their school. There is no need to get so sensitive when these comments are made...it just is true. Show me some PROOF as to how what I am saying is so wrong.

You know what, you're right. Nothing can possibly become appealing to people unless the proof is already there. If history tells us anything, it's that tastes for sports, fashion, music, entertainment never change through time.

Let's pretend I'm having a "conversation" in 1973 -- Title IX has just passed.

Me: You know in the future, we have several "ESPN networks" on "cable television" where they televise a 64-team NCAA women's basketball tournament and World Series for College Softball, and it gets better ratings than men's college hockey. And women earn just as much money as men for winning grand slam tennis tournaments.

1973 male: strange look

Me: And we have online community where people talk about women's college hockey from all over the country and beyond.

1973 male: more strange looks, slowly backs away

Last time I checked, we live in a free market economy where demand and supply dictate the flow of business.

Actually, we don't live in a purely free market economy. There's a law called Title IX that prevents colleges from only providing participation opportunities for men's sports, like they pretty much used to before that regulation existed.

Gee, if you discriminate against half the population in athletics throughout human history prior to 1973, what a huge shock it is that those sports aren't nearly as popular!! Also, we should cut women's hockey from the Olympics right now. We should cut men's hockey too. I mean look all the blowouts they had in the 1920s in their early stages, just like women's hockey now. What a joke -- free gold medals to Canada!!

Finally, I have been to my share of womens games believe it or not. DIII and DI. Talking to support staff at the games who were employees of the school, one might be shocked at the amount of jokes being made about how it was like watching paint dry...how it was such a rip off because you pay for the entire seat while only using 10% of it...etc etc

Oh my god, you mean discriminatory attitudes from pre-1970s have actually persisted in small segments of the population! I'm dumbfounded. I mean, what are you going tell me next, that there are people in this country who voted against Obama solely because of his race? At least we don't live in a society with people who are that backwards, phew....

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

Last time I checked, we live in a free market economy where demand and supply dictate the flow of business.

I guess the last time you checked was at least a few decades ago but judging by your age, that wouldn't have been possible...then again, don't feel badly since the majority of people, unfortunately, don't have a clue what is really going on in the market(s) or worse, don't care...So don't feel badly, just educate yourself...it's the only way that you'll have any hope of being able to protect yourself and your family. The sad reality is that there are no free markets anymore...only interventions, and your country is the epicenter.

It's time to wake up and take back your country...remember The Green Dragon Tavern!

 

[Skate79]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

I've been a season ticket holder to the Harvard men's hockey team for over 30 years. And I can honestly say that watching the women play this year was FAR MORE exciting than watching the men. No contest. The women played with skill and speed; the men had trouble getting out of their own way. The women's game is based more on skill although it is taking on aspects of the men's game with increased physicality.

In the 11 years I've been watching women's hockey at Harvard, attendance has steadily decreased even though the program has been an NCAA force during this time. I don't know why the students don't support the hockey teams. Perhaps the sport just doesn't have the appeal on campus that it did in the eighties and nineties. I really don't know.

The ECAC does a lousy job promoting the sport and the tournament doesn't even make it on TV. This year, they had to alter the format of the semis and finals and I guarantee you that attendance was at the heart of their decision. Not being able to hold a tournament in one location is a joke and until this changes, women's hockey will suffer.

It's true that for the most part, parents, friends and roommates attend these games. But there are a fair number of alums and fans of hockey like myself who attend the games because we love hockey and appreciate the skill and talent displayed by the teams. I wish more people would attend the games but until the sport has greater exposure through television, better marketing, and improved competition, attendance will suffer. The NCAA Frozen Four should be on ESPN2 at the very least or the NHL Network. Anything less (and I count CSTV in that group) just won't cut it.

 

[Trillium]

Re: Attendance at NCAA

I want to hear you tell your daughter that the reason why you don't support women's athletics is because "it doesn't make good business sense".

I don't know you, I know not a single thing about you except that I know you don't have a daughter.

.

Well, let's hope not.