Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

The difference is $$$$. Membership dues (or whatever they are called) to the NCAA D-I and to D-I conferences are higher. Recruiting budgets are significantly higher (for those that want to compete at all).

Ah, so there would be a different cost to the NCAA if they were D-I instead of playing for nothing at D-II. I'm curious to know what that difference would be.

I've got to figure that the recruiting would be a non-factor. St. A's and company could easily just keep doing whatever they're doing right now.

 

[SNHUPenman]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

Ah, so there would be a different cost to the NCAA if they were D-I instead of playing for nothing at D-II. I'm curious to know what that difference would be.

I've got to figure that the recruiting would be a non-factor. St. A's and company could easily just keep doing whatever they're doing right now.

They would all need to increase their recruiting budgets...the schools as they stand would get pounded so hard in D1.

Sure it costs more to play D1 hockey, but spending any money on D2 hockey is already a complete waste.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

They would all need to increase their recruiting budgets...the schools as they stand would get pounded so hard in D1.

As true as that is... how much more money would you really have to spend to get better recruits? Even the worst D1 program has more to offer a player than a D-II school with nothing to play for. My assumption was that you'd spend the same or slightly more money to go after slightly better recruits. Compete with the top tier D-III schools and lower rung D-I schools (who can't be spending much on recruits or they'd be bankrupt) instead or against whomever your competition is right now.

 

[SNHUPenman]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

As true as that is... how much more money would you really have to spend to get better recruits? Even the worst D1 program has more to offer a player than a D-II school with nothing to play for. My assumption was that you'd spend the same or slightly more money to go after slightly better recruits. Compete with the top tier D-III schools and lower rung D-I schools (who can't be spending much on recruits or they'd be bankrupt) instead or against whomever your competition is right now.

Believe me, I think it is necessary. Maybe the increase wouldn't be much, but I would have to think it has been enough of a deterant to not move up so far. If the cost was absolutely 0, then why wouldn't they all have moved up?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

Fair point.

 

[MattS]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

As true as that is... how much more money would you really have to spend to get better recruits?

Do those schools even recruit?

 

[SNHUPenman]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

Do those schools even recruit?

I am not sure of the details or extent to which they do, but I know that SNHU recruits. I know they have given out scholarships in the past but I am unsure of the extent or the amount they hand out.

 

[Donald from Albany]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

What I find curious about the whole thing is that if St. Anselm is finally waking up and bringing their program from D-II to D-I, when are the rest of the D-II programs going to wake up and realize that there probably wouldn't be much of a difference for them if they just went D-I? Assuming that they can schedule non-conference games with other small New England schools, how much different could the costs actually be to do what they're doing right now in D-I?

I suppose I've just never understood the incentive to play for nothing at the D-II level with a bunch of D-III schools added to the schedule when you could do almost the exact same thing at the D-I level without adding any extra scholarships.

There would be a huge cost difference. Right now, none of the DII schools give any hockey scholarship money, otherwise, DIIIs wouldn't play them. Also, apart from St. A's, I am pretty sure they all have part time coaches. So, you're talking 10 scholarships, a couple of full-time coaches, and increased travel, not to mention playing 34 games instead of 25. High six figures, minimum, to move up, if not seven figures.

From what I have heard, the stumbling block at St. A's will be the money, but who knows. Keep in mind they have a women's program they would have to upgrade too, so the cost would be nearly double.

 

[joecct]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

There would be a huge cost difference. Right now, none of the DII schools give any hockey scholarship money, otherwise, DIIIs wouldn't play them. Also, apart from St. A's, I am pretty sure they all have part time coaches. So, you're talking 10 scholarships, a couple of full-time coaches, and increased travel, not to mention playing 34 games instead of 25. High six figures, minimum, to move up, if not seven figures.

From what I have heard, the stumbling block at St. A's will be the money, but who knows. Keep in mind they have a women's program they would have to upgrade too, so the cost would be nearly double.

D-II's in the East:
Merrimack - HEA (NE-10)
AIC - AHA (NE-10)
Bentley - AHA (NE-10)
Mass-Lowell -- transitioning to D-I (xNE-10)
---- ^schollys ----- \/ no schollys
St. Anselm - ECAC-E (NE-10)
St. Michaels - ECAC-E (NE-10)
So. New Hampshire - NE-10
Franklin Pierce - NE-10
Assumption - NE-10
Stonehill -- NE-10

West
The entire nWCHA (except BGSU) is Division II They all give schollys
NCHC
Minnesota - Duluth - schollys
Saint Cloud - schollys

Please be careful lumping all of D-II in one pot. Most choose to play up and can offer, and do offer athletic $$. Most of the NE-10 hockey programs choose to play down. That's what makes the whole what to do with the NE-10 schools so difficult. I believe the NCAA D-II presidents do not want two sets of rules for their schools to allow them to pick which national championship they can play in. Right now, they can only play for the Division I title and I do not see any resolution to letting them play down and have the games count.

 

[MattS]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

Please be careful lumping all of D-II in one pot. Most choose to play up and can offer, and do offer athletic $$. Most of the NE-10 hockey programs choose to play down. That's what makes the whole what to do with the NE-10 schools so difficult. I believe the NCAA D-II presidents do not want two sets of rules for their schools to allow them to pick which national championship they can play in. Right now, they can only play for the Division I title and I do not see any resolution to letting them play down and have the games count.

My guess is that DoA meant the current DII playing mostly DIII schedules, not the one's playing up.

 

[MattS]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

I have thought about this some and I am not in favor of the adding of schollies. I think it is going to create more of a division between the "have's" and the "have not's". I am concerned about the lower tier teams just saying "screw, it" and dropping hockey or at least varsity DI hockey.

 

[Jim]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

That would also go a long way towards explaining either why Atlantic teams typically don't get home games. I think the 11-12 season was the first time in a long time that RPI had traveled to an Atlantic rink (Niagara was still CHA in 09-10 and we did visit them), and although we're going to Mercyhurst this year, the "away game" with Sacred Heart is going to be at a neutral site (mind you in Bridgeport, but still technically neutral). A team like Air Force can get away with it since Denver and CC are nearby with the next closest college hockey team over 500 miles away. Atlantic teams are starting to get some more clout with agreements to have 1 or 2 games in a NHL or AHL rink (RMU with Consol, SHU with Bridgeport, RIT with BCA, UAH although they're nWCHA has a couple games in Nashville, etc.), and are starting to be able to bring in the higher caliber teams, albeit at return trips that are very IMBA.

EDIT: Forgot about RPI traveling to Army a couple times. Granted, they were our former travel partner during the short time they were in the ECAC, so it makes sense.

though I realize they are leaving, a number of teams have traveled to UConn for their holiday tournament. And Merrimack and Union have been there for regular season games in recent years before the Hockey East announcement. I have a vague recollection of RPI being there too, but that might have been in the tournament. As far as games at Bridgeport for Sacred Heart, they actually play a few games there every year. I know they played UConn last year and I think Air Force either last year or the year before, too. Glad to see they are leveraging that facility to get some home games against other leagues, too.

 

[lmg6841]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

Which could have a positive effect on the PWR of the "haves" of Atlantic Hockey.

I have thought about this some and I am not in favor of the adding of schollies. I think it is going to create more of a division between the "have's" and the "have not's". I am concerned about the lower tier teams just saying "screw, it" and dropping hockey or at least varsity DI hockey.

 

[Jim]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

I know, right? I mean, in that case we can forget talking about the AHA, the D-IIs can basically just create their own conference.

(I say this, knowing full well that the experience of the MAAC hockey conference probably acts as a scarecrow to prevent stuff like that from happening)

The MAAC arrangement was an oddball set up from the get go. You had a bunch of teams that weren't MAAC members in anything else who had minimal to no input into the MAAC decisionmaking process and a few MAAC teams who did. Plus you had MAAC league rules like the no D2/3 rule that caused trouble early on even though it was a MAAC rule that applied universally to all the sports they sponsored. It was over all a difficult arrangement that nobody particularly liked. In large part the affiliation with the MAAC was driven by the NCAA which was at the time trying to discourage single sport leagues and pushed the new group to seek an affiliation with an existing conference. They eventually backed off that position a few years later for sports like hockey. the MAAC hockey-MAAC relationship was problematic from day 1. The AHA is a far better situation.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

though I realize they are leaving, a number of teams have traveled to UConn for their holiday tournament. And Merrimack and Union have been there for regular season games in recent years before the Hockey East announcement. I have a vague recollection of RPI being there too, but that might have been in the tournament. As far as games at Bridgeport for Sacred Heart, they actually play a few games there every year. I know they played UConn last year and I think Air Force either last year or the year before, too. Glad to see they are leveraging that facility to get some home games against other leagues, too.

We were there for the tournament in 2011-12, but would very much like to forget it.

 

[Pink Pony]

I have thought about this some and I am not in favor of the adding of schollies. I think it is going to create more of a division between the "have's" and the "have not's". I am concerned about the lower tier teams just saying "screw, it" and dropping hockey or at least varsity DI hockey.

Also, this might prevent teams from leaving.

The less competitive will have to reevaluate the hockey programs.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

I have thought about this some and I am not in favor of the adding of schollies. I think it is going to create more of a division between the "have's" and the "have not's". I am concerned about the lower tier teams just saying "screw, it" and dropping hockey or at least varsity DI hockey.

If you don't add them, the second the Ivies bolt from the ECAC, AHA collapses as what we'll call the "concerned western four" will look to join the ECAC (and they're natural travel partners, although Erie/Pittsburgh is a bit of a hike), maybe bring in RIT to partner with Colgate (QPac's in the dark for the time being). That leaves Atlantic with six teams. You poach one Eastern team away to partner with QPac, and it's lights out for that league.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

The AHA is a far better situation.

In this case, the remaining D-II/NE-10 Schools are just joining the AHA, right? Is there a scenario where they all come up and form their own conference? They could probably steal AIC and Bentley from the AHA easily enough, but I doubt that they'll get their hands on Lowell or Merrimack ever.

Would a NE-10 hockey league be able to survive?

 

[Zyklon]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

If you don't add them, the second the Ivies bolt from the ECAC, AHA collapses as what we'll call the "concerned western four" will look to join the ECAC (and they're natural travel partners, although Erie/Pittsburgh is a bit of a hike), maybe bring in RIT to partner with Colgate (QPac's in the dark for the time being). That leaves Atlantic with six teams. You poach one Eastern team away to partner with QPac, and it's lights out for that league.

Why does everyone assume the Ivies will bolt? It seems like a forgone conclusion, but I've never seen any proof of any possibility of it ever happening.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Atlantic Hockey Adds to Scholarship Limit, Mulls Expansion

Why does everyone assume the Ivies will bolt? It seems like a forgone conclusion, but I've never seen any proof of any possibility of it ever happening.

If Yale hadn't won the NC this past year, I would have seen it as a foregone conclusion. Non-ivies are stepping up.