Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

[John J. MacInnes]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

So if the neutral site model is going to continue, what Western venues could be approached?

In Michigan, there are only a few arenas who fit the bill. Grand Rapids has been a failure, I can't imagine Van Andel Arena will ever host again. USA Hockey Arena in Plymouth is too small. Dow Events Center in Saginaw and Dort FCU Arena in Flint have no host school near them and are not really desirable locations.

The intriguing one for me is Wings Event Center in Kalamazoo. WMU is a natural host in their own town, the arena holds just over 5000 and also has extra ice sheets attached, KZO is a very serviceable airport, there are numerous good hotel options as well as short travel times to major metros (Detroit 2 hours, Chicago 2 hours), and 10 schools are within a 5 hour drive (WMU, Notre Dame, Ferris, MSU, UM, BGSU, Miami, OSU, LSSU, Wisconsin).

 

[Bale]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

I could be misremembering, but wasn't there a conflict in Mankato this weekend that would have precluded them from hosting anyway?

Keeping venues open just in case the team hosts is not a viable option in the days of multipurpose arenas.

ETA: there was a concert at the Mankato arena so they couldn't have hosted.

Not sure that proves much of a point though. The Verizon Center doesn't have that many concerts in the arena (they do next door in the Grand Hall, but they have held concerts and games on the same night numerous times). They only have one concert in the arena between now and August, it just so happened that there was one there this last weekend. They hold the arena for three weekends of conference playoffs in the WCHA, this would be just one more. I know that's not the case for other arenas, but Kato isn't a good example as they've shown that the building will block it off as they have for the conference tourney.

 

[Bale]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

So if the neutral site model is going to continue, what Western venues could be approached?

In Michigan, there are only a few arenas who fit the bill. Grand Rapids has been a failure, I can't imagine Van Andel Arena will ever host again. USA Hockey Arena in Plymouth is too small. Dow Events Center in Saginaw and Dort FCU Arena in Flint have no host school near them and are not really desirable locations.

The intriguing one for me is Wings Event Center in Kalamazoo. WMU is a natural host in their own town, the arena holds just over 5000 and also has extra ice sheets attached, KZO is a very serviceable airport, there are numerous good hotel options as well as short travel times to major metros (Detroit 2 hours, Chicago 2 hours), and 10 schools are within a 5 hour drive (WMU, Notre Dame, Ferris, MSU, UM, BGSU, Miami, OSU, LSSU, Wisconsin).

I'm not sure there is one in Minnesota that would fit the requirements other than XCel and Target Center. Other than that, you're stuck with Sioux Falls, Fargo, Des Moines, Omaha.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

However, many fans lament the low regional attendance which the past few years they have been able to boost in Providence by placing PC there.

I think most fans who lament the awful attendance also advocate for a return to higher seeds hosting, at least for the first round.

I think we should try one more thing to boost attendance and that is to eviscerate bracket integrity. Place the teams closest to home but still keep a team from each band in the 4 regions. Meaning we place the best 1 seed closest to home, then the place the other 3 of them according to geography. If two teams have a claim on a site being the closest, break that tie by seeding. Then do the same with the 2 seeds, then the 3s and finally the 4s. You still have a 1-4, 2-3 matchup and we already move teams to keep from having conference teams play each other in the first round. We see them move teams from time to time for reasons of attendance and atmosphere anyway, like people have complained about with the PC placement a couple of times. Just do it for all the games.

I know the overall #1 wants to be able to play the overall #16, but does that really matter anymore? 3 times in the last 5 years that matchup has resulted in an upset. I also believe overall #2 seeds have lost to a #16 (at least once anyway, Notre Dame did in 2009). For over a decade straight we've seen at least one #1 seed lose in the opening round, and in some of those years we've seen more than one lose.

Of course this wouldn't help so much with 3 regionals that are clearly in the eastern third of the U.S. But if we could find a couple of venues to start bidding more regularly in Michigan or Illinois or Wisconsin, along with places that have hosted the West Regional lately, maybe a tweak like I suggest would work. OK, it's probably a little more than a tweak, but they call them regionals. Why not actually make them "regional?"

I know one of the arguments against this is it makes it all the more likely that you will see regional finals contested between conference mates, and those teams may have played each other in a conference playoff semi-final or championship just a week before. Frankly, I don't know why that matters. When Notre Dame played -- and beat -- UMass Lowell in 2017 in a regional final did any Notre Dame fan care that they had just played them a week earlier in the HE playoffs, or that it was the 4th time we played them that season? None that I know.

 

[cetihcra]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Final Attendance Numbers

Attendance in Manchester: 5033 (Friday)
Attendance in Manchester: 5679 (Saturday)
2-day total: 10712
(Capacity: 9852; Occ%: 54.4%)

Attendance in Fargo: 4220 (Friday)
Attendance in Fargo: 4248 (Saturday)
2-day total: 8468
(Capacity: 5000; Occ%: 84.7%)

Attendance in Providence: 7180 (Saturday)
Attendance in Providence: 5231 (Sunday)
2-day total: 12411
(Capacity: 14000; Occ%: 44.3%)

Attendance in Allentown: 3763 (Saturday)
Attendance in Allentown: 3561 (Sunday)
2-day total: 7324
(Capacity: 8420; Occ%: 43.5%)

Total Attendance: 38915
(TotCapacityX2: 75,544; Total Occ%: 51.5%)

For fun, I'd added arena capacities and Occupancy% to each regional, and the total.
r

 

[cetihcra]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

So if the neutral site model is going to continue, what Western venues could be approached?

In Michigan, there are only a few arenas who fit the bill. Grand Rapids has been a failure, I can't imagine Van Andel Arena will ever host again. USA Hockey Arena in Plymouth is too small. Dow Events Center in Saginaw and Dort FCU Arena in Flint have no host school near them and are not really desirable locations.

The intriguing one for me is Wings Event Center in Kalamazoo. WMU is a natural host in their own town, the arena holds just over 5000 and also has extra ice sheets attached, KZO is a very serviceable airport, there are numerous good hotel options as well as short travel times to major metros (Detroit 2 hours, Chicago 2 hours), and 10 schools are within a 5 hour drive (WMU, Notre Dame, Ferris, MSU, UM, BGSU, Miami, OSU, LSSU, Wisconsin).

Budweiser Event Center, in Loveland, CO is bidding on the next round of Regionals (I heard via twitter from some local media people). I imagine DU is the host institution, though it could also be the City of Loveland, or something like that. It's a 5,289 seat AHL barn, less than an hour north of Denver.

r

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

I think most fans who lament the awful attendance also advocate for a return to higher seeds hosting, at least for the first round.

I think we should try one more thing to boost attendance and that is to eviscerate bracket integrity. Place the teams closest to home but still keep a team from each band in the 4 regions. Meaning we place the best 1 seed closest to home, then the place the other 3 of them according to geography. If two teams have a claim on a site being the closest, break that tie by seeding. Then do the same with the 2 seeds, then the 3s and finally the 4s. You still have a 1-4, 2-3 matchup and we already move teams to keep from having conference teams play each other in the first round. We see them move teams from time to time for reasons of attendance and atmosphere anyway, like people have complained about with the PC placement a couple of times. Just do it for all the games.

I know the overall #1 wants to be able to play the overall #16, but does that really matter anymore? 3 times in the last 5 years that matchup has resulted in an upset. I also believe overall #2 seeds have lost to a #16 (at least once anyway, Notre Dame did in 2009). For over a decade straight we've seen at least one #1 seed lose in the opening round, and in some of those years we've seen more than one lose.

Of course this wouldn't help so much with 3 regionals that are clearly in the eastern third of the U.S. But if we could find a couple of venues to start bidding more regularly in Michigan or Illinois or Wisconsin, along with places that have hosted the West Regional lately, maybe a tweak like I suggest would work. OK, it's probably a little more than a tweak, but they call them regionals. Why not actually make them "regional?"

I know one of the arguments against this is it makes it all the more likely that you will see regional finals contested between conference mates, and those teams may have played each other in a conference playoff semi-final or championship just a week before. Frankly, I don't know why that matters. When Notre Dame played -- and beat -- UMass Lowell in 2017 in a regional final did any Notre Dame fan care that they had just played them a week earlier in the HE playoffs, or that it was the 4th time we played them that season? None that I know.

FWIW,Venues in…

Wisconsin.
Dane County Coliseum (Madison, 7432 seats)
UWM Panther Arena (Milwaukee, 9652)
Fiserv Forum (Milwaukee, 17000 for hockey? A FF venue, really)
Resch Center (Green Bay, 8709, averaged 5161 across 3 regionals hosted here)

Chicago Area
United Center (Chicago, 19717, FF venue)
Allstate Arena (Rosemont, 16692)
UIC Pavilion (Chicago, 5500 for hockey?)
Sears Center (Hoffman Estates, 8362)

Northern Illinois
BMO Harris Bank Center (Rockford, 6200)
TaxSlayer Arena (Moline/Quad Cities, 9200)

 

[ticapnews]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

The numbers the NCAA really cares about: $$$$$

For these calculations the following assumptions were made (to keep the math easy)

Host committees (and the NCAA) received 100% of ticket revenue
The average cost of a ticket was $50. There was some variance by region, and some got a reduced price through the 2-day deal, but $50 seems like a good average.*
They also received 100% of concessions, souvenirs, parking etc
The average ticket buyer spent $30/person for the above items.*
The cost for each site was $250,000 (based on $150,000 NCAA fee and the stated $100,000 estimate for renting the site)*
Any of these * costs or revenues can be easily adjusted and I'll run the math again...

Profit

Providence: $135,000
Manchester: $110,000
Fargo: $75,000
Allentown: $60,000
NCAA: $2,135,000

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Considering that this was (per my numbers) the second worst attended set of regionals of the current format… that’s pretty good.

https://twitter.com/exileondaytonst/status/1112764018488418304

 

[davyd83]

FWIW,Venues in…

Wisconsin.
Dane County Coliseum (Madison, 7432 seats)
UWM Panther Arena (Milwaukee, 9652)
Fiserv Forum (Milwaukee, 17000 for hockey? A FF venue, really)
Resch Center (Green Bay, 8709, averaged 5161 across 3 regionals hosted here)

Chicago Area
United Center (Chicago, 19717, FF venue)
Allstate Arena (Rosemont, 16692)
UIC Pavilion (Chicago, 5500 for hockey?)
Sears Center (Hoffman Estates, 8362)

Northern Illinois
BMO Harris Bank Center (Rockford, 6200)
TaxSlayer Arena (Moline/Quad Cities, 9200)

The Resch Center is out of play due to schedule issues with the Wisconsin girls BBall tourney & the Gamblers USHL Team. Fiserv could do a Frozen Four, but is not likely to do a regional. Everyone seems to forget the AHL Admirals recently renovated UWMilwaukee Panthers Arena. It’s the former MECCA and seats around 9900 for hockey. All new seats and concession areas are there as well.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Every time the girls BB tourney has been up here, it’s been within the first two weeks of March. That’s not a direct conflict for the NCAA regionals.

The Gamblers arent a huge issue as they can and have had multiple weeks away from home, so the Resch having occupancy for 4-5 days at the beginning of the month and a similar timeframe at the end of the month isn’t insurmountable by any stretch.

 

[davyd83]

Every time the girls BB tourney has been up here, it’s been within the first two weeks of March. That’s not a direct conflict for the NCAA regionals.

The Gamblers arent a huge issue as they can and have had multiple weeks away from home, so the Resch having occupancy for 4-5 days at the beginning of the month and a similar timeframe at the end of the month isn’t insurmountable by any stretch.

Well, I guess that you and the Gamblers and the people at PMI see things differently. Did you also forget the Green Bay Bilzzard football team? Though to BBall tourney doesn’t play on the NCAA tournament weekend, it does affect the number of weekend home dates available in March for the Gamblers, the Blizzard and concerts. That’s why PMI has said that NCAA hockey tournament play is not an option right now.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

If that’s what they’ve said publicly then I guess that’s that.

But I don’t think there’s an issue that the Resch can’t figure out. DCU Center in Worcester is a regular regional host with an arena football and minor (league) hockey team as tenants as well. Sorting this out is what arena managers do for a living.

 

[mookie1995]

If that’s what they’ve said publicly then I guess that’s that.

But I don’t think there’s an issue that the Resch can’t figure out. DCU Center in Worcester is a regular regional host with an arena football and minor (league) hockey team as tenants as well. Sorting this out is what arena managers do for a living.

Just need to.plan.

 

[davyd83]

Just need to.plan.

Maybe they don’t want to host the event. In the open weekend where they didn’t have the Gamblers, Blizzard or the basketball tourney, they hosted a nearly sold out Dierks Bentley show. Maybe they found that to be more profitable.

 

[MTUHuskies]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Maybe they don’t want to host the event. In the open weekend where they didn’t have the Gamblers, Blizzard or the basketball tourney, they hosted a nearly sold out Dierks Bentley show. Maybe they found that to be more profitable.

It's a sad day when country music is more popular than NCAA hockey. But I guess that's Wisconsin for ya.

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[Hoover]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

It's a sad day when country music is more popular than NCAA hockey. But I guess that's Wisconsin for ya.

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I'm a country music fan, but I'd rather spend my time and money on an NCAA hockey Regional than a concert. As davyd83 surmised, maybe there's more $$$ to be made with a Dierks Bentley show. At the end of the day, it's all about money...

Given the choice to attend either an NCAA game or a country music concert scheduled for the same night, I'd choose hockey every time. I'm sure I'm in the minority, as I know college hockey is a niche sport and has a relatively small fan base compared to the world of country music.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

It's a sad day when country music is more popular than NCAA hockey. But I guess that's Wisconsin for ya.

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Must be sad all the time then..

 

[Bruin]

Re: Annual thread in which the absurdity of the current regional system is discussed

Personally, I thought the turnout of Providence fans was unimpressive--even disappointing. Take out the Cornell sections, the leftover Northeastern fans (all of whom were rooting for Providence), and fans of other schools and you could probably fit what was left into Schneider. Yes, I know Providence is a small school but I also think the college community and city at large should have done much better.

Actually, in my opinion, it was probably as good as it can get, and that's the ironic part of the discussion about Providence. We are not talking about UND-type of crowd here. This is PC, where students leave en-masse after the second period (if they show up at all), and where season ticket holders often do not attend the games (sometimes not a single game) at all. Even with the small school size, the leaderships tries hard to sell it as a sports school - it is not.

 

[davyd83]

It's a sad day when country music is more popular than NCAA hockey. But I guess that's Wisconsin for ya.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

The show outdrew each day of all 4 regionals and the weekend totals for 2 of them.