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An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

aparch said:
He did, and he's a goddammed National Treasure for his writing.

How Segregation Caused Your Traffic Jam - 1619 / NYT

Related (from other sources):
Sheridan Expressway in NYC
I-81 Viaduct in Syracuse
I-375 in Detroit
Congress Expressway Displacements in Chicago
Dan Ryan Displacements in Chicago
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While I've not read any of those - the Rondo neighborhood in St. Paul and the construction of I-94. Where's that predominantly black neighborhood in this city? Let's put the freeway right through that; land is cheapest there, anyway.
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

St. Clown said:
While I've not read any of those - the Rondo neighborhood in St. Paul and the construction of I-94. Where's that predominantly black neighborhood in this city? Let's put the freeway right through that; land is cheapest there, anyway.
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SOmeone recently shared the map of Twin Cities mortgage covenants that expressly forbade selling the property to a POC. It was horrific and eye-opening.
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

St. Clown said:
While I've not read any of those - the Rondo neighborhood in St. Paul and the construction of I-94. Where's that predominantly black neighborhood in this city? Let's put the freeway right through that; land is cheapest there, anyway.
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If you are a government agency and you need to construct miles of highway through a city, cost is absolutely going to be a factor, regardless of the color of the skin of the people who live there.
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

SJHovey said:
If you are a government agency and you need to construct miles of highway through a city, cost is absolutely going to be a factor, regardless of the color of the skin of the people who live there.
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The cost was just one factor. There are books on the Rondo neighborhood and why it was chosen to become a highway. And, in truth, there were some cheaper options available, but they didn't want to gentrify the areas to the south of the highway - Rondo did go all the way down to Marshall Ave, because the folks on Summit were getting worried. The homes that were plowed under to the north (northern boundary being University Ave.), was largely condemned and in went a lot of shopping centers between University and the newly created I-94.

When you walk through some parts of St. Paul, you can find plaques regarding the history of that old neighborhood, extolling some virtuous public servants who were out of the norm for the time, or giving people a sense of why Rondo is gone even though only about 25 of it became a freeway.
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

So apparently Bloomberg said Booker was "well-spoken" and Booker took offense to this. I get why it can be a dicey thing to say in a lot of circumstances but I also assume it depended on the context.

Since I'm also probably ignorant on this, can you never say a POC is well-spoken? Is it because using that phrase presumes people of color don't speak well by default?

Again, I'll let my probable ignorance hang out for everyone to see, the reason I'm confused is because I don't think the average person of any race speaks that well.
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

dxmnkd316 said:
can you never say a POC is well-spoken?
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Yup. It's a code word, "well spoken for a blackie." Just don't say it. There's no way to not sound somehow bigoted. Either you're being patronizing or you're reserving the right to evaluate them, and either way... woof.

This has been, "Whites Whitesplain Whitesplaining to Whites." Had this been a multi-racial conversation it would not have taken place on the Cafe.
 
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Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

dxmnkd316 said:
So apparently Bloomberg said Booker was "well-spoken" and Booker took offense to this. I get why it can be a dicey thing to say in a lot of circumstances but I also assume it depended on the context.

Since I'm also probably ignorant on this, can you never say a POC is well-spoken? Is it because using that phrase presumes people of color don't speak well by default?

Again, I'll let my probable ignorance hang out for everyone to see, the reason I'm confused is because I don't think the average person of any race speaks that well.
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Do you not remember the Chris Rock bit?

Whenever Colin Powell is on the news, white people give him the same compliments: 'How do you feel about Colin Powell?', 'He speaks so well! He's so well spoken. I mean he really speaks so well!' Like that's a compliment. 'He speaks so well' is not a compliment, okay? 'He speaks so well' is some **** you say about ******** people that can talk. What do you mean he speaks so well? He's a ****ing educated man! How the **** did you expect him to sound, you dirty mother****er? 'He speaks so well.' What are you talking about? What voice were you expecting to come out of his mouth? 'Imma drop me a bomb today', 'I be Pwez o dent!'.
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Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

Kepler said:
Yup. It's a code word, "well spoken for a blackie." Just don't say it. There's no way to not sound somehow bigoted. Either you're being patronizing or you're reserving the right to evaluate them, and either way... woof.

This has been, "Whites Whitesplain Whitesplaining to Whites." Had this been a multi-racial conversation it would not have taken place on the Cafe.
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So, what's the best way to complement Booker on his intelligence? Is there a way? Or is that just a minefield as well?
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

dxmnkd316 said:
So, what's the best way to complement Booker on his intelligence? Is there a way? Or is that just a minefield as well?
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Just. Don't.

It's like saying a woman is "very logical."

Dr. Mrs. once knew a newly minted faculty member who had his PhD hanging on the wall in his office. The chair of the department came in, glanced at it, and said, "well, I assumed."

Assume a black man running for president speaks well. Assume a woman running for president is logical. Don't look at the Irish candidate and say, "he's so sober!"
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

dxmnkd316 said:
So, what's the best way to complement Booker on his intelligence? Is there a way? Or is that just a minefield as well?
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I mean, if you want to say he's smart, just say "he's smart". :P
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

dxmnkd316 said:
So apparently Bloomberg said Booker was "well-spoken" and Booker took offense to this. I get why it can be a dicey thing to say in a lot of circumstances but I also assume it depended on the context.
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I think it's an over-reaction (despite what others have posted otherwise) in that imho what he meant by, "well-spoken" was, "I like what he has to say". I've referred to white people before as, "well spoken". It didn't mean I thought that they enunciate well or know big words, it was that they had something important to say.

And no Kepler it shouldn't be assumed otherwise because there are plenty of people of Booker's stature (even white *gasp*) that reached their place despite themselves and couldn't solve their way out of an open paper bag.

Now I am not an idiot and am well-aware of the arguments against using the phrase including Rock's wonderful routine, but can't we ever just pause, sit back, and think before we (inevitably?) raise the pitchforks?
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

Slap Shot said:
Now I am not an idiot and am well-aware of the arguments against using the phrase including Rock's wonderful routine, but can't we ever just pause, sit back, and think before we (inevitably?) raise the pitchforks?
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It's not our call. If the person we say something about says, "hey, I don't like that sh-t," then they don't like that sh-t. Full stop.

Lesson 1 in "unlearning how to be a white male as-shole" is listen to people when they tell you you're being a white male as-shole. Obviously you wouldn't do it if you knew you were doing it. So the fact that you're doing it -- without meaning to -- should make you change your behavior when people tell you, "huh, well, actually..."

This also works with women.

We were born being told we were the standard of what counts as appropriate behavior. In our lucid moments we know this isn't fair. But that's not enough. What's enough is to stop acting like we do. Even (especially) when it doesn't feel like we're doing anything wrong.

You're a good person. Listen to people when they tell you sh-t.
 
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Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

Kepler said:
It's not our call. If the person we say something about says, "hey, I don't like that sh-t," then they don't like that sh-t. Full stop.

Lesson 1 in "unlearning how to be a white male as-shole" is listen to people when they tell you you're being a white male as-shole. Obviously you wouldn't do it if you knew you were doing it. So the fact that you're doing it -- without meaning to -- should make you change your behavior when people tell you, "huh, well, actually..."

This also works with women.

We were born being told we ran the world. In our lucid moments we know this isn't fair. But that's not enough. What's enough to to stop acting like we do.

You're a good person. Listen to people when they tell you sh-t.
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I'm aware of the "rule" and would avoid the phrase, but it doesn't negate my observation. Booker has every right to take offense, but he could also as a well-reasoned adult think for a second before reacting.

Is there no compliment Bloomberg could pay Booker without someone reacting, "Why would say that - because he's a black man?". He didn't say he was surprised by it, he said he appreciated it. And again if what he truly meant was, "I like what he has to say" would that too be a bridge too far?
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

Slap Shot said:
I'm aware of the "rule" and would avoid the phrase, but it doesn't negate my observation. Booker has every right to take offense, but he could also as a well-reasoned adult think for a second before reacting.
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Well, Booker is a bad example because obviously he thought about and picked a cynical political strategy on how to react (I am shocked, shocked do you hear...?!). Nothing these guys say on camera is ever sincere. I don't actually give a sh-t about how Booker took it (which we'll never know). He's a politician, not a person.

But if you're gonna say that as a white dude then you can't complain for one second when you are buried under a metric ton of horse dung because you should have known better.

Bloomberg is, no doubt, "good with money." I do not recommend Mayor Pete bringing it up.
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

Kepler said:
But if you're gonna say that as a white dude then you can't complain for one second when you are buried under a metric ton of horse dung because you should have known better.
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*Yes on the whole I fundamentally agree with you 100%.

As far as Booker the politician - and this assumes the first people to react were not Booker he only heard about it later - how cool would have it been for him to say, "I understand why people would take offense to that phrase when said about a POC, but I also understand it's not condescending to respect the intelligence and policies of one".

That said we still need to circle back to *.
 
Re: An 'Honest" Conversation About Race? Just Give Me My Coffee!

Slap Shot said:
*Yes on the whole I fundamentally agree with you 100%.

As far as Booker the politician - and this assumes the first people to react were not Booker he only heard about it later - how cool would have it been for him to say, "I understand why people would take offense to that phrase when said about a POC, but I also understand it's not condescending to respect the intelligence and policies of one".

That said we still need to circle back to *.
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That would have been cool. It would have been the opposite of Cory Booker as I understand him. Obama would do that. Abrams might do that. Not Cory -- Cory's still using the '90s playbook.
 
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