America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

[unofan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

That's a good question, perhaps you could give something from the Constitution which it violates? Not that I disagree with the stance that it goes against something, but could you be more specific than just saying it's unconstitutional?

If so do you also propose removing things like requiring auto insurance? Majority of states require that you purchase some kind of insurance and if they catch you without it's big trouble for you.

Regarding auto insurance, you are only required to have auto insurance if you wish to drive, which is considered a privilege and not a right (as it should be when you're moving 2-ton objects at great velocity). Slightly different from requiring insurance just by reason of being alive (really, just goto a single payer and take it out of your paystub ala FICA - the current bill is worthless).

As to the first argument, it probably should be unconstitutional because it's not an enumerated power and the Commerce Clause shouldn't cover it. That said, past precedent allows anything to fall under the commerce clause, thus it will be Constitutional whether it should be or not - we crossed that bridge in the 1930's (thanks again, FDR).

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

No- the panel is not a federal panel. Is an independent entity ( this was news to me but I heard a bunch of clarification on NPR today) that the feds do not fund or control. THe HHS lady came out and said the Feds were not changing anything based on this recommendation.

Dammit!!! All us anti-gubmint kooks will just have to find something else to complain about.

Regarding the Constitutionality of taxing people, you see this trotted out every so often by the Black Helicopter crowd. This issue was settled with the establishment of a federal income tax, and furthermore by countless court challenges which are constantly rejected. Like it or not, the government has the right to tax your @ ss, back to the Stone Age even, and your defense against it is to get out and vote if you don't like it. That's why the notion that the Dems will pass a bill that jacks taxes up through the roof is ridiculous. Purely on self preservation grounds they have a vested interest in not doing that.

 

[Foxton]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Regarding auto insurance, you are only required to have auto insurance if you wish to drive, which is considered a privilege and not a right (as it should be when you're moving 2-ton objects at great velocity). Slightly different from requiring insurance just by reason of being alive (really, just goto a single payer and take it out of your paystub ala FICA - the current bill is worthless).

Barring public transportation options, which are not always available, cars are a requirement for a good deal of the population just to be able to make a living. The privilege part comes from the fact that the ability can be taken away should you fail to be responsible.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

still its your choice to own a car. and not having insurance on it is - what? - a misdemeanor? I believe the new health care plan proposed prison time for not having health insurance.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

still its your choice to own a car. and not having insurance on it is - what? - a misdemeanor? I believe the new health care plan proposed prison time for not having health insurance.

I don't believe it proposes that at all. Not to mention they got rid of debtors prison awhile back....

 

[Foxton]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

still its your choice to own a car. and not having insurance on it is - what? - a misdemeanor? I believe the new health care plan proposed prison time for not having health insurance.

Depends on the state, in Massachusetts it's a 500-5000$ fine and possibly a year in prison.

 

[moe24]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

still its your choice to own a car. and not having insurance on it is - what? - a misdemeanor? I believe the new health care plan proposed prison time for not having health insurance.

It's a $500 fine in most states.

As for the prison time for not having health insurance, that was part of some early proposals but it didn't make it through to either the house's or senate's final bills.

 

[Handyman]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

It's a $500 fine in most states.

As for the prison time for not having health insurance, that was part of some early proposals but it didn't make it through to either the house's or senate's final bills.

Shhhhh...you are expecting huskyfan to actually pay attention...like reading one of walrus' posts it is best just to keep your expectations low

 

[walrus]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Shhhhh...you are expecting huskyfan to actually pay attention...like reading one of walrus' posts it is best just to keep your expectations low

But somehow you can't stop thinking about me

 

[MattS]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Regarding auto insurance, you are only required to have auto insurance if you wish to drive, which is considered a privilege and not a right (as it should be when you're moving 2-ton objects at great velocity). Slightly different from requiring insurance just by reason of being alive (really, just goto a single payer and take it out of your paystub ala FICA - the current bill is worthless).

In addition, I believe that auto insurance is mandated by the States not the Feds. So, since in the Constitution the States have much broader powers than the Feds I would guess this is how it gets around the constitutionality issues.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

This issue was settled with the establishment of a federal income tax, and furthermore by countless court challenges which are constantly rejected.

Except that when the income tax was enacted, they realized that it DID violate the Constitution, so they amended it to specifically allow for that one kind of tax. Somehow, I don't quite see the pro-reform crowd banging the drum to amend the Constitution to allow for a Health Care Tax this time around...

 

[alfablue]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Except that when the income tax was enacted, they realized that it DID violate the Constitution, so they amended it to specifically allow for that one kind of tax. Somehow, I don't quite see the pro-reform crowd banging the drum to amend the Constitution to allow for a Health Care Tax this time around...

???

So they amended the base consitution?- this is Article I Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

So Congress has had the power to tax for defence (sic) and welfare from the beginning, the stipulation being that it be uniform across the US. I thought amendments went into the amendments area...

Where do you recall it being amended to match income tax?

Oh, and the healthcare can easily fall under "general Welfare of the United States"... so.

 

[ScottM]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

???

So they amended the base consitution?- this is Article I Section 8



So Congress has had the power to tax for defence (sic) and welfare from the beginning, the stipulation being that it be uniform across the US. I thought amendments went into the amendments area...

Where do you recall it being amended to match income tax?

Oh, and the healthcare can easily fall under "general Welfare of the United States"... so.

It's a bit hazy, but I believe he's talking about the 16th Amendment which was enacted in response to a Supreme Court ruling that had abrogated Congress' right to collect individual income taxes.

 

[alfablue]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

It's a bit hazy, but I believe he's talking about the 16th Amendment which was enacted in response to a Supreme Court ruling that had abrogated Congress' right to collect individual income taxes.

Got it, thanks!!!

 

[Handyman]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

But somehow you can't stop thinking about me

Maybe because when I check in the morning I always see 20 posts by you...none with more than 15 words but usually at least one grammatical or spelling error

 

[walrus]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Maybe because when I check in the morning I always see 20 posts by you...none with more than 15 words but usually at least one grammatical or spelling error

20? I'm flattered the first thing you do in the morning is to check what I posted. Its kinda cool having my very own cyber stalker

 

[huskyfan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

It's a $500 fine in most states.

As for the prison time for not having health insurance, that was part of some early proposals but it didn't make it through to either the house's or senate's final bills.

ok, so what, I'm supposed to actually read the bill?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

It's a bit hazy, but I believe he's talking about the 16th Amendment which was enacted in response to a Supreme Court ruling that had abrogated Congress' right to collect individual income taxes.

Exactly. Not sure how a discussion about the instituting of the income tax and a constitutional amendment could be "hazy," though. I certainly wasn't referring to the first amendment...

 

[ScottM]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Exactly. Not sure how a discussion about the instituting of the income tax and a constitutional amendment could be "hazy," though. I certainly wasn't referring to the first amendment...

Heh. I was referring to my own recollection of the genesis of income taxation from my days of doing offshore tax structures and similar work. Looking at tax law these days ... "hazy" is a dramatic understatement.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

That's why the notion that the Dems will pass a bill that jacks taxes up through the roof is ridiculous. Purely on self preservation grounds they have a vested interest in not doing that.

where do you live, goof ball!?!