America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

[MinnFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

LOL. Stuff like this is so hilarious. Social Security runs a hell of a lot cheaper than my local HMO does. It doesn't have CEO bonuses either. Try again.

And it runs a hell of a lot more expensive than my broker (which is the equivilant comparision) and my broker actually has to count his overhead.

If you want to go apples-to-apples for healthcare compare the quality of care of the VA vs. private care.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Another former GOP admin official jumps in with an endorsement:
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The White House is distributing a letter from former President George H. W. Bush's Health and Human Services Secretary, Louis W. Sullivan, expressing his hope that this administration succeeds in passing health care reform.

Statement by Louis W. Sullivan, M.D.
President Emeritus, Morehouse School of Medicine
and U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services, 1989-1993

"As a physician and a former Secretary of Health and Human Services, I've worked in our health care system and participated in the health reform debate from the front lines. Many administrations, including ours nearly 20 years ago, have tried to fix our health care system. In the time since I left office, approximately 10 million more Americans are uninsured, an increase of 27 percent, which is unacceptable. The longer we wait and ignore the problems in our system, the larger that number will grow. Fortunately, today we have a real opportunity to pass health reform and change the path we're on. I am particularly pleased with the increased emphasis on prevention of injury and illness, and the promotion of healthy behavior that is in the legislation under consideration. It's time for members of both parties to work together to pass a bill that will fix our system, help those who have health care keep it, help those without health care to get it, and improve the health care and the health status of all Americans."

Louis W. Sullivan, M.D.
Atlanta, Georgia
October 8, 2009

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So that's two HHS cabinet officials and two former GOP Senate leaders.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

LOL. Stuff like this is so hilarious. Social Security runs a hell of a lot cheaper than my local HMO does. It doesn't have CEO bonuses either. Try again.

Apple meet orange. S/S is not medical insurance and has never been privatized.

You also need to brush up on civics. S/S won't be around when you retire. Remember? It should be "cheaper".

I'll let you take another stab at one, single instance where government has stepped in to take the place of private industry or business and has run it more efficiently (cheaper) and produced the same or better product or service.

Please....humor me.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Apple meet orange. S/S is not medical insurance and has never been privatized.

You also need to brush up on civics. S/S won't be around when you retire. Remember? It should be "cheaper".

I'll let you take another stab at one, single instance where government has stepped in to take the place of private industry or business and has run it more efficiently (cheaper) and produced the same or better product or service.

Please....humor me.

I think you give health insurance companies too much credit. What is the value add that I am getting with my health insurance dollar today? If they actually had to make something, or produce something other than skimming money off of taxpayers who don't even get to choose which one of them they do business with, then I'd buy the whole private industry thing. Until then, forget it. Otherwise they are no different than SS and a hell of a lot more expensive.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Its a simple concept sparky. The savings and tax on insurance companies for super-expensive plans

i'll ask you as you know... what is the new cut off now for "super expensive health plans"? since the initial $ number was lower than mine current plan - which is rather common (and, *pause* includes everyone -who doesn't know it yet , or doesn't want to know it yet ).

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

i'll ask you as you know... what is the new cut off now for "super expensive health plans"? since the initial $ number was lower than mine current plan - which is rather common (and, *pause* includes everyone -who doesn't know it yet , or doesn't want to know it yet ).

The "cutoff" so to speak is the nearly $2k <strike>penalty</strike> tax you'll pay to the Feds if you don't have a health plan - which of course will put you into the "public option" - which everyone will do eventually because it's cheaper than buying your own - which will eventually lead to 100% socialized healthcare - which will lead to massive budget issues in the future - which will lead to rationing healthcare.....etc., etc., etc.

Not a reach at all.

I think you give health insurance companies too much credit. What is the value add that I am getting with my health insurance dollar today? If they actually had to make something, or produce something other than skimming money off of taxpayers who don't even get to choose which one of them they do business with, then I'd buy the whole private industry thing. Until then, forget it. Otherwise they are no different than SS and a hell of a lot more expensive.

Nice way to duck a simple question. As for giving the insurance companies "too much credit", come back and talk to me after you've been on a payment plan with a hospital because of them not paying or having an operation cancelled the day prior to surgery by the insurer.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Nice way to duck a simple question. As for giving the insurance companies "too much credit", come back and talk to me after you've been on a payment plan with a hospital because of them not paying or having an operation cancelled the day prior to surgery by the insurer.

Already happened. I was denied coverage after oral surgery in 1992 after I had had prior approval over the phone for the procedure.

Try again.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Already happened. I was denied coverage after oral surgery in 1992 after I had had prior approval over the phone for the procedure.

Try again.

Duck, duck, duck.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

The "cutoff" so to speak is the nearly $2k <strike>penalty</strike> tax you'll pay .....

no no no....

the bill before was $21,000 on families on current plans... which is easily what every working person has (this includes your payroll deductions + you employer contribution). 35% mut'tha'fru'king tax on the value over.

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

I think private charitable organizations should fill that role, and I feel pretty confident that I've backed up that view throughout my life by my actions in supporting such charities through my donations of time, talents, and money. For example, check out Friends in Need, which was started by some MD friends of mine for providing care to those without insurance in my hometown area - one of the charities I still support even though I don't live there any more.

I argue the merits of private charitable giving with my wife in my home role as "callous libertarian" against her "kindhearted liberal." One of her rebuttals that has merit is that private charities work well locally, but that leaves places with no "giver" population uncovered. Back in the Golden Age of the Founders, 90% of the population lived in small agricultural communities, almost everybody was the same color and went to the same church, and charitable giving was directed to people you saw every day because you had to trip over them on the way to draw water. Families were huge and stayed in the same towns for multiple generations, so there was a big family reservoir of assistance to draw from. In the cities, charities were structured around common ties (church or ethnic groups).

In an alienated urbanized modern country, those ties have all broken down so (1) people resent giving because they don't identify with the recipients, and (2) assistance from local givers to local recipients won't cover blighted city cores or meth-infested rural counties where everybody able to help has pulled up stakes and left long ago.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Duck, duck, duck.

What duck? There's nothing about the current system that empowers the consumer. Until that happens the system is as worthless to the average taxpayer as any other government program.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

i'll ask you as you know... what is the new cut off now for "super expensive health plans"? since the initial $ number was lower than mine current plan - which is rather common (and, *pause* includes everyone -who doesn't know it yet , or doesn't want to know it yet ).

Anywhere from 21K-26K per year. Since they have some $$$ to spare now, I'd say it'll end up closer to the high end (call it 25K for now).

I have no idea where you get your insurance from, but there's no way my plan costs that much in total, given what I'm paying myself, and I live in the most expensive state for health care in the country. Your employer would have to be paying 2,100 a month to insure you. At that rate mookie, given your presumed performance level, its probably just better business to fire your @zz.

Not to mention, the tax isn't on you, its on your insurer so that they stop offering "everything's paid for" coverage which invites multiple and frequent visits/testing/etc for every time you're hung over in the morning since you're not paying anything out of pocket.

 

[unofan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

I'll let you take another stab at one, single instance where government has stepped in to take the place of private industry or business and has run it more efficiently (cheaper) and produced the same or better product or service.

Nebraska electrical power. There are two power companies in Nebraska, OPPD (serving the Omaha area) and NPPD (serving the rest of the state). Both provide electricity to the state's citizens efficiently and much cheaper than what I now pay in Iowa, partly because they don't have to provide profits to shareholders.

Likewise, MUD (Metropolitan Utilities District) provides natural gas to Omaha at rates 5-10% less than what Black Hills Energy charges customers here in Council Bluffs.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Boston Latin public school for example. Its called an exam school because you have to test above a certain threshold to be admitted, but those students do as well or better as the rest of the schools in the state, including private ones charging 20K a year tuition.

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Nebraska electrical power. There are two power companies in Nebraska, OPPD (serving the Omaha area) and NPPD (serving the rest of the state). Both provide electricity to the state's citizens efficiently and much cheaper than what I now pay in Iowa, partly because they don't have to provide profits to shareholders.

Likewise, MUD (Metropolitan Utilities District) provides natural gas to Omaha at rates 5-10% less than what Black Hills Energy charges customers here in Council Bluffs.

Same story in Oregon and probably everywhere there are power co-ops. Just another reason why one-size fits all ideologies (like laissez faire) are clean, simple to understand,... and wrong.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Boston Latin public school for example. Its called an exam school because you have to test above a certain threshold to be admitted, but those students do as well or better as the rest of the schools in the state, including private ones charging 20K a year tuition.

Would all of the students at those private schools pass the Latin entrance exam? If not, then it's an uninteresting comparison.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

So before you ask, yes: I think people can end up there by chance, and no, I still don't think the federal government should bear the responsibility to try to help them. That's like sending an aircraft carrier to rescue a drowning swimmer - sometimes a rowboat is a more appropriate solution.

Wouldn't the aircraft carrier in this metaphor be single-payer?

Did the federal gov't need an aircraft carrier to extend coverage to uninsured children?

 

[Kepler]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Wouldn't the aircraft carrier in this metaphor be single-payer?

Did the federal gov't need an aircraft carrier to extend coverage to uninsured children?

In the metaphor the government doesn't send anything. The drowning swimmer is supposed to negotiate with private companies to rescue him.

I have a feeling their rates are going to be high.

Why's he drowning, anyway? Probably just lazy.

 

[Rover]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

In the metaphor the government doesn't send anything. The drowning swimmer is supposed to negotiate with private companies to rescue him.

I have a feeling their rates are going to be high.

Why's he drowning, anyway? Probably just lazy.

Well done.

 

[unofan]

Re: America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009 - Part 2 - Deathers vs. Commies

Same story in Oregon and probably everywhere there are power co-ops. Just another reason why one-size fits all ideologies (like laissez faire) are clean, simple to understand,... and wrong.

Laissez faire explains it fine, so long as you believe in the concept of natural monopolies (of which utilities are the textbook example). Once you realize that there's no incentive to compete as a natural monopoly, then it makes sense to remove the incentive to earn profits as well, since the purpose of profits in a market economy is to allocate resources to the most competitive (efficient).