Captain Obvious
...the Man, the Myth, the Legend...
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Fetter? A male coach that could start right away. He would be good.
Fetter? A male coach that could start right away. He would be good.
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Adrian College Gripefest
- Thread starter WIrinkrat
- Start date
training44
New member
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Well, today it was announced that Ashley Carlson was named Synchronized Skating Head Coach!
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Chad Davis Named Women’s Hockey Head Coach.
"Davis joins the Adrian staff after spending last season as a Volunteer Assistant Coach at NCAA Division I Robert Morris (PA) University where he worked with the Colonials goaltenders that finished first in the Atlantic Hockey Conference in team save percentage and goals against average in overall play."
Chad Davis Named Women’s Hockey Head Coach.
"Davis joins the Adrian staff after spending last season as a Volunteer Assistant Coach at NCAA Division I Robert Morris (PA) University where he worked with the Colonials goaltenders that finished first in the Atlantic Hockey Conference in team save percentage and goals against average in overall play."
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Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Wow. Schools are getting dumber and dumber with their hiring. I have talked to several current women's college hockey coaches...both head and assistant...who threw their names in the hat and never got so much as a phone call. Figured it must have been a can't miss no brainer hire...
Wow. Schools are getting dumber and dumber with their hiring. I have talked to several current women's college hockey coaches...both head and assistant...who threw their names in the hat and never got so much as a phone call. Figured it must have been a can't miss no brainer hire...
Captain Obvious
...the Man, the Myth, the Legend...
I have to agree with you. The amount of hires over the past few years with little or no experience coaching, or coaching women. I am not saying this will be a bad hire, just really interested in a trend we a experiencing.
OnMAA
Vort Doen.....Heija Heija Heija
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Following the trend of the big leagues (NHL) where coach recycling is becoming a thing of the past and the younger newcomers are succesfull (Trott, Boucher, Bylsma etc)
Following the trend of the big leagues (NHL) where coach recycling is becoming a thing of the past and the younger newcomers are succesfull (Trott, Boucher, Bylsma etc)
giwan
Really??!!
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
The only college trend is that a newcomer comes in at a cheaper price. Can't compare this to the NHL
The only college trend is that a newcomer comes in at a cheaper price. Can't compare this to the NHL
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Sorry, OnMAA...I typically agree with most everything you express here, but these two situations are completely different.
Professional hockey is professional hockey with very minor nuances between the different levels. Regardless, a coach is there to coach and deal with the players at hand. The game is the same at each level, and the coaches progress through the ranks. They typically don't have much say in player personnel. They show up and coach hockey. Head coaches like Keenan who were around forever were moved aside for younger guys who spent 5 or 10 years coming up through the coaching ranks and eventually got their chance.
Here we have games that are very similar but are not entirely the same. You can't neutralize skill with physical play the way you can on the men's side. There is a great deal more teaching that goes on with the women's side. The players coming into women's college hockey have experienced far less teaching than their male counterparts and have a lot more learning to do. This is slowly changing as some better coaches are becoming involved at the younger levels of women's hockey and we start to get better depth on these youth teams so that the best player is just told to go get the puck and score...they actually have to start learning how to play. Still, it's a different approach from a coaching perspective from the mens game to the womens. On top of that you have the recruiting, which is also a completely different animal than on the men's side (not that this guy has even done any of that as a volunteer goalie coach). And let's be honest, we aren't talking about "old coaches" that have been around for 20 or 30 years being pushed aside for this "young" talent. We are talking about coaches who have worked their tails off for 5-8 years, often taking part time, or otherwise low paying positions to get their foot in the door and learn the nuances of coaching women's college hockey.
Then there are the schools like giwan mentioned who are just hiring people with no experience on either side of the game...whehter it's because of the price tag or some other reason, it's unfortunate and it's not helping the players one bit.
Sorry, OnMAA...I typically agree with most everything you express here, but these two situations are completely different.
Professional hockey is professional hockey with very minor nuances between the different levels. Regardless, a coach is there to coach and deal with the players at hand. The game is the same at each level, and the coaches progress through the ranks. They typically don't have much say in player personnel. They show up and coach hockey. Head coaches like Keenan who were around forever were moved aside for younger guys who spent 5 or 10 years coming up through the coaching ranks and eventually got their chance.
Here we have games that are very similar but are not entirely the same. You can't neutralize skill with physical play the way you can on the men's side. There is a great deal more teaching that goes on with the women's side. The players coming into women's college hockey have experienced far less teaching than their male counterparts and have a lot more learning to do. This is slowly changing as some better coaches are becoming involved at the younger levels of women's hockey and we start to get better depth on these youth teams so that the best player is just told to go get the puck and score...they actually have to start learning how to play. Still, it's a different approach from a coaching perspective from the mens game to the womens. On top of that you have the recruiting, which is also a completely different animal than on the men's side (not that this guy has even done any of that as a volunteer goalie coach). And let's be honest, we aren't talking about "old coaches" that have been around for 20 or 30 years being pushed aside for this "young" talent. We are talking about coaches who have worked their tails off for 5-8 years, often taking part time, or otherwise low paying positions to get their foot in the door and learn the nuances of coaching women's college hockey.
Then there are the schools like giwan mentioned who are just hiring people with no experience on either side of the game...whehter it's because of the price tag or some other reason, it's unfortunate and it's not helping the players one bit.
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funfunhockey
New member
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
The players are for the most part very excited about this transition. So whether or not people think that it was a smart decision the players and staff of Adrian College are very excited for the year to begin. The girls finally feel like they have a strong ground to stand on, don't take that away from them and put doubt back into their minds.
The players are for the most part very excited about this transition. So whether or not people think that it was a smart decision the players and staff of Adrian College are very excited for the year to begin. The girls finally feel like they have a strong ground to stand on, don't take that away from them and put doubt back into their minds.
giwan
Really??!!
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
I mean no head coaching experience at a college level. Doesn't mean no other type of experience.
I personally know a couple of old timers that would be great as HC for a women's team. They have done it at the lower levels for a long time and know hockey inside and out.
I mean no head coaching experience at a college level. Doesn't mean no other type of experience.
I personally know a couple of old timers that would be great as HC for a women's team. They have done it at the lower levels for a long time and know hockey inside and out.
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Sure, there are cases like that...but if they haven't worked at least a few seasons as an assistant at that level in order to have a basic understanding of the recruiting aspect, then they probably would not be the best or most qualified candidate either.
Unfortunately some schools have hired people without any tangible coaching experience, period, except maybe a few camps here and there and a year of volunteer D3 assistant experience...and that is really disturbing.
Sure, there are cases like that...but if they haven't worked at least a few seasons as an assistant at that level in order to have a basic understanding of the recruiting aspect, then they probably would not be the best or most qualified candidate either.
Unfortunately some schools have hired people without any tangible coaching experience, period, except maybe a few camps here and there and a year of volunteer D3 assistant experience...and that is really disturbing.
dogwatcher
New member
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
That does not seem like the case here. To adapt from the mens side to womens side seems to be something that many have done. He has been around the game a long time. To hire a retread lets be honest some of these coaches have good records, but guess what womens hockey at least at the D3 level teams win on talent alone until you get to the high end teams. If you watch the games close you will see many teams that out preform their ability and many that perform below record is no indication of either. You have to watch and see why a team wins and why a team lose. Some of these coaches even from what one would say from the outside are "successful programs" were just stealing money. So to worry about the trend of bringing in new blood I think is crazy. WIrr had it right when he said that a lot more teaching is required on the womens side. He has been coaching at levels where that is extremely important so I think that will be an asset for Adrian. As far as recruiting goes really are you clowns serious( know what you need find it ) not rocket science lots of girls out there looking to play. I am sure coach Davis will do a great job. I am sure they knew what was missing from the staff and looked to fill those gaps. Congrats to coach Davis and the girls hope you have a fun and successful season.
That does not seem like the case here. To adapt from the mens side to womens side seems to be something that many have done. He has been around the game a long time. To hire a retread lets be honest some of these coaches have good records, but guess what womens hockey at least at the D3 level teams win on talent alone until you get to the high end teams. If you watch the games close you will see many teams that out preform their ability and many that perform below record is no indication of either. You have to watch and see why a team wins and why a team lose. Some of these coaches even from what one would say from the outside are "successful programs" were just stealing money. So to worry about the trend of bringing in new blood I think is crazy. WIrr had it right when he said that a lot more teaching is required on the womens side. He has been coaching at levels where that is extremely important so I think that will be an asset for Adrian. As far as recruiting goes really are you clowns serious( know what you need find it ) not rocket science lots of girls out there looking to play. I am sure coach Davis will do a great job. I am sure they knew what was missing from the staff and looked to fill those gaps. Congrats to coach Davis and the girls hope you have a fun and successful season.
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
LOL! As someone who has not coached college hockey, but has coached another sport at that level, I can say that is spoken like someone who has never worked in college athletics.
But yeah, I'm sure it's so easy that even you could do it.
You've gotta be kidding me...recruiting is quite possibly the most difficult nuance of college athletics to actually be good at. You might be able to put anyone behind the phone or in the rink, but not everyone is going to excel at it, especially when it's their first go round. Becoming a truly good recruiter takes time. A lot of time.
LOL! As someone who has not coached college hockey, but has coached another sport at that level, I can say that is spoken like someone who has never worked in college athletics.
But yeah, I'm sure it's so easy that even you could do it.
You've gotta be kidding me...recruiting is quite possibly the most difficult nuance of college athletics to actually be good at. You might be able to put anyone behind the phone or in the rink, but not everyone is going to excel at it, especially when it's their first go round. Becoming a truly good recruiter takes time. A lot of time.
notfromaroundhere
A visitor in any town!
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
I hate to ask if you researched this guy before making that statement...
http://www.rmucolonials.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13900&ATCLID=204969108
Granted, this guy doesn't have experience in the women's game, but there are plenty of coaches who make the jump at this level from the men's to the womens game successfully.
And as far as recruiting being "different" in the women's game, this parent and his daughter didn't come into the recruiting process with an idea of what should be different about being recruited as a female than as a male. As a college coach, you sell the school experience (if you can't identify what a recruit wants from her college experience and identify those elements in the school, you aren't going to get too many happy players), you sell your ideas for how you run a team (from coaching philosophy to the nuts and bolts of how you put together a team - if you can't explain why your system works, then you can't coach), and most importantly, you sell yourself as an honest straight forward guy who will answer questions directly without candy-coating answers. I'm not sure which of these recruiting tasks has a gender property about it.
Good student/athletes want to be respected and talked to intellegently about how they would fit into a program and school.
I will also disagree with your assessment about physical play not being important in women's hockey. There is still no substitute for physical presence in front of the net and teams that cannot control that area are doomed to give up lots of goals on defense and struggle in cashing in loose change offensively. Yes, you cannot knock a high-skilled player off the puck, but at the D3 level (and that is what this thread is about), there are few if any players who can take over a game consistently like in D1. So physicality is actually more important in that respect, as there aren't the unstoppable scorers in D3 and usually it is the physcality that stops the best offensive teams.
I have no dog (no pun intended) in this fight, but I found it dismaying that this guy got trashed right out of the box. It is about the level this whole thread has taken so far...
I hate to ask if you researched this guy before making that statement...
http://www.rmucolonials.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13900&ATCLID=204969108
Granted, this guy doesn't have experience in the women's game, but there are plenty of coaches who make the jump at this level from the men's to the womens game successfully.
And as far as recruiting being "different" in the women's game, this parent and his daughter didn't come into the recruiting process with an idea of what should be different about being recruited as a female than as a male. As a college coach, you sell the school experience (if you can't identify what a recruit wants from her college experience and identify those elements in the school, you aren't going to get too many happy players), you sell your ideas for how you run a team (from coaching philosophy to the nuts and bolts of how you put together a team - if you can't explain why your system works, then you can't coach), and most importantly, you sell yourself as an honest straight forward guy who will answer questions directly without candy-coating answers. I'm not sure which of these recruiting tasks has a gender property about it.
Good student/athletes want to be respected and talked to intellegently about how they would fit into a program and school.
I will also disagree with your assessment about physical play not being important in women's hockey. There is still no substitute for physical presence in front of the net and teams that cannot control that area are doomed to give up lots of goals on defense and struggle in cashing in loose change offensively. Yes, you cannot knock a high-skilled player off the puck, but at the D3 level (and that is what this thread is about), there are few if any players who can take over a game consistently like in D1. So physicality is actually more important in that respect, as there aren't the unstoppable scorers in D3 and usually it is the physcality that stops the best offensive teams.
I have no dog (no pun intended) in this fight, but I found it dismaying that this guy got trashed right out of the box. It is about the level this whole thread has taken so far...
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
Yes, I read what his background is. His background is not as extensive as some of the coaches and former coaches who I know have applied and did not receive as much as a phone call. Had they talked to everyone qualified and determined this guy was the best of the bunch, fine, but they obviously didn't take the time to do their due diligence on all of the qualified applicants and instead honed in on someone with much less experience. It's not hard to pick up the phone and do a 20 or 30 minute phone interview to see what people are about.
I agree, and you misunderstood my point and I apologize for not being more clear. I was not speaking to the manner in which coaches deal with players. That does not change much at all. I was speaking more to the fact that the men's side involves your junior leagues as well as summer festivals and tournaments whereas the women's side is almost exclusively tournament based (outside of Minnesota anyway) which makes it more of a challenge (especially for head coaches) to be involved during the season as they are not able to get out on the road very much. At the D3 level where you don't typically have a full time assistant, the bulk of the recruiting responsibility falls upon the head coach and if you aren't well versed in who the kids are or which tournaments are the most bang for your buck early in the season it can impact your ability to see kids later in the year when the Adrian season is in full swing. It's not like being a men's coach in Boston where you can go to a high school or junior game 20 minutes away on a tuesday to see a kid, because those opportunities are almost non existent.
I absolutely did NOT say that physical play did not matter. However you can not neutralize high end skill in the women's game the same way you can in the men's game. Not even close. Physical play is absolutely important in front of the net and in winning puck battles along the wall, but without the ability to really finish checks on kids in full possession, it's difficult to stop kids with great hands for dancing around players. On the men's side you teach guys to just drive through a puck carrier. You can't do that on the women's side. You have to spend a ton more time teaching angling and teaching kids HOW to play defense both individually and collectively within a system. This is especially true because many of those players have never had much of that instruction coming into college. Can a good teacher do this regardless of where they have worked? Absolutely. Is it a fact that can be overlooked? It sure is. The point is that there are differences in the mens and womens game. It's not surprising to see a 7th or 8th place team in a men's league knock off a top 2 or 3 team in the country that is dressing 15 NHL draft picks. You rarely if ever see teams outside of the top 10 beating top 10 teams in the women's game. It has started to happen ever so slightly more than it did 3 or 4 years ago, but it's far from the level you see on the men's side which IMO is a reflection upon the inability to really neutralize high end skill.
Yes, I read what his background is. His background is not as extensive as some of the coaches and former coaches who I know have applied and did not receive as much as a phone call. Had they talked to everyone qualified and determined this guy was the best of the bunch, fine, but they obviously didn't take the time to do their due diligence on all of the qualified applicants and instead honed in on someone with much less experience. It's not hard to pick up the phone and do a 20 or 30 minute phone interview to see what people are about.
I agree, and you misunderstood my point and I apologize for not being more clear. I was not speaking to the manner in which coaches deal with players. That does not change much at all. I was speaking more to the fact that the men's side involves your junior leagues as well as summer festivals and tournaments whereas the women's side is almost exclusively tournament based (outside of Minnesota anyway) which makes it more of a challenge (especially for head coaches) to be involved during the season as they are not able to get out on the road very much. At the D3 level where you don't typically have a full time assistant, the bulk of the recruiting responsibility falls upon the head coach and if you aren't well versed in who the kids are or which tournaments are the most bang for your buck early in the season it can impact your ability to see kids later in the year when the Adrian season is in full swing. It's not like being a men's coach in Boston where you can go to a high school or junior game 20 minutes away on a tuesday to see a kid, because those opportunities are almost non existent.
I absolutely did NOT say that physical play did not matter. However you can not neutralize high end skill in the women's game the same way you can in the men's game. Not even close. Physical play is absolutely important in front of the net and in winning puck battles along the wall, but without the ability to really finish checks on kids in full possession, it's difficult to stop kids with great hands for dancing around players. On the men's side you teach guys to just drive through a puck carrier. You can't do that on the women's side. You have to spend a ton more time teaching angling and teaching kids HOW to play defense both individually and collectively within a system. This is especially true because many of those players have never had much of that instruction coming into college. Can a good teacher do this regardless of where they have worked? Absolutely. Is it a fact that can be overlooked? It sure is. The point is that there are differences in the mens and womens game. It's not surprising to see a 7th or 8th place team in a men's league knock off a top 2 or 3 team in the country that is dressing 15 NHL draft picks. You rarely if ever see teams outside of the top 10 beating top 10 teams in the women's game. It has started to happen ever so slightly more than it did 3 or 4 years ago, but it's far from the level you see on the men's side which IMO is a reflection upon the inability to really neutralize high end skill.
OnMAA
Vort Doen.....Heija Heija Heija
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
I guess you failed to detect the sarcasm/humour in my post. It was very much meant as TIC.
Having said that, the debate on the subject is a good one, and all kidding aside, my post was also partly serious, as it is sometimes good to have new blood injected into the coaching ranks. New blood brings new ideas, and that is how the world evolves. I work in Hi-Tech, and in that industry people and companies can get stale in a real hurry, as it is full of new blood perpetually.
I'm with notfromaroundhere, in that when a new coach is chosen, to support him or her and to give them some time prove themselves, before we pass judgement.
I guess you failed to detect the sarcasm/humour in my post. It was very much meant as TIC.
Having said that, the debate on the subject is a good one, and all kidding aside, my post was also partly serious, as it is sometimes good to have new blood injected into the coaching ranks. New blood brings new ideas, and that is how the world evolves. I work in Hi-Tech, and in that industry people and companies can get stale in a real hurry, as it is full of new blood perpetually.
I'm with notfromaroundhere, in that when a new coach is chosen, to support him or her and to give them some time prove themselves, before we pass judgement.
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notfromaroundhere
A visitor in any town!
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
I'll agree that he is going to have to find out where all the tournaments are, but that shouldn't be too difficult, but given the school's history of recruiting girls from western Ontario and other non-traditional places (at least for D3) I can say this too is different. And not too many people will say the team is lacking in talent. And having a daughter who has played on rinks just about everywhere (22 states + a few trips north of the boarder in the 5 years before college) but where she lives in the girls game (we don't have it anywhere nearby), I can say there are lots of girls who can play at the D3 level who are invisible because the coaches are all watching the same games at the same tournaments. I know in my daughter's situation, her HC never saw her play, but relied on feedback from another trusted coach. In some ways, not having been in the women's game may actually keep him from getting caught up watching the same girls as everyone else and may be beneficial.
Actually, most of my daughter's coaches had to spend more time coaching the concept of skating "through" the puck to the skaters on the team and that they CAN flatten the puck carrier if they take the puck away first. I will agree that because of the large variation in skill level in girls hockey teams a lot more time has to be spent teaching systems at the college level because many of the better players could depend upon overwhelming their opponents with individual skills. I will also agree that there is a greater disparity between the performance of top and bottom womens D3 hockey teams when compared to men's hockey. I wouldn't say that is because there are great stick handlers in D3 (most of them find their way to D1) more than it is a lack of basic skating skills on the 2nd and 3rd lines of the weaker women's teams. When you are being outskated, you either have to yield a large cushion or watch someone blow past you. Either way it looks like the weaker teams are chasing the stronger teams' players around in neutral ice. However, once the puck gets in the slot, a team that is more physical can overcome a lack of speed and stick handling.
This is all small stuff in the bigger discussion of the coach selection at Adrian. They have the talent to do quite well. The question is whether bringing in a coach from the men's game is the secret to making this bunch of players perform better. No AD ever got fired for hiring the most qualified (on paper) coach. It would appear that this AD is not covering his backside with this decision.
But I'm in the same boat with OnMAA about not criticizing the decision before we see the end product.
I was concerned with the section that I highlighted in red only talking about his experience as a goalie coach when I asked if you did your research. Neither of us know Adrian's hiring selection process nor if there was a deliberate attempt to get away from the women's coaching circle in their selection criteria. Adrian is not a school that most people in women's hockey had even heard of (I actually knew a neighbor's kid who went there many years ago) before they got into the hockey business. They seem to have their own way of doing things, which seems to be different. Not sayin right or wrong, just different.
I'll agree that he is going to have to find out where all the tournaments are, but that shouldn't be too difficult, but given the school's history of recruiting girls from western Ontario and other non-traditional places (at least for D3) I can say this too is different. And not too many people will say the team is lacking in talent. And having a daughter who has played on rinks just about everywhere (22 states + a few trips north of the boarder in the 5 years before college) but where she lives in the girls game (we don't have it anywhere nearby), I can say there are lots of girls who can play at the D3 level who are invisible because the coaches are all watching the same games at the same tournaments. I know in my daughter's situation, her HC never saw her play, but relied on feedback from another trusted coach. In some ways, not having been in the women's game may actually keep him from getting caught up watching the same girls as everyone else and may be beneficial.
Actually, most of my daughter's coaches had to spend more time coaching the concept of skating "through" the puck to the skaters on the team and that they CAN flatten the puck carrier if they take the puck away first.
I will agree that because of the large variation in skill level in girls hockey teams a lot more time has to be spent teaching systems at the college level because many of the better players could depend upon overwhelming their opponents with individual skills. I will also agree that there is a greater disparity between the performance of top and bottom womens D3 hockey teams when compared to men's hockey. I wouldn't say that is because there are great stick handlers in D3 (most of them find their way to D1) more than it is a lack of basic skating skills on the 2nd and 3rd lines of the weaker women's teams. When you are being outskated, you either have to yield a large cushion or watch someone blow past you. Either way it looks like the weaker teams are chasing the stronger teams' players around in neutral ice. However, once the puck gets in the slot, a team that is more physical can overcome a lack of speed and stick handling.This is all small stuff in the bigger discussion of the coach selection at Adrian. They have the talent to do quite well. The question is whether bringing in a coach from the men's game is the secret to making this bunch of players perform better. No AD ever got fired for hiring the most qualified (on paper) coach. It would appear that this AD is not covering his backside with this decision.
But I'm in the same boat with OnMAA about not criticizing the decision before we see the end product.
dogwatcher
New member
Re: Adrian College Gripefest
When i said recruiting was easy what i meant was it takes an ability to evaluate talent which every coach should have. Know your needs which every coach should know. After that it's about selling your school and program (this is the hard part). How ever other coaches from the school can tell you what seperates your school and what it can offer that others don't. Do you have the courses that the student is looking for is the school the right size. Some players are out of your reach based on their interests if you spend too much time on them you will not have enough time for the ones you can get. After that it is a matter of showing a student how they fit in the school and on the team. If you put them in the picture and let them see themselves as part of the school and that they will be an important part of it. Then you have too make sure you continue to let them know that each time you are in contact with them. I will admit it is an art but all of sales is. A successful sale requires 3 things of the buyer need,means and motivation. All of these kids have at least two of the three and most have three. Painting the picture of how it will work for them when they come to your school is the hard part of the task.
When i said recruiting was easy what i meant was it takes an ability to evaluate talent which every coach should have. Know your needs which every coach should know. After that it's about selling your school and program (this is the hard part). How ever other coaches from the school can tell you what seperates your school and what it can offer that others don't. Do you have the courses that the student is looking for is the school the right size. Some players are out of your reach based on their interests if you spend too much time on them you will not have enough time for the ones you can get. After that it is a matter of showing a student how they fit in the school and on the team. If you put them in the picture and let them see themselves as part of the school and that they will be an important part of it. Then you have too make sure you continue to let them know that each time you are in contact with them. I will admit it is an art but all of sales is. A successful sale requires 3 things of the buyer need,means and motivation. All of these kids have at least two of the three and most have three. Painting the picture of how it will work for them when they come to your school is the hard part of the task.