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Acupuncture
- Thread starter Timothy A
- Start date
huskyfan
New member
Re: Acupuncture
Plus, aside from emergency rooms, good luck finding a doctor late at night. The one advantage alternative "medicine" types have is they lay on hands and spend more time with patients. Along the lines of Marcus Welby. A lot of that is missing in today's medicine. Doctors want to get 'em in and get 'em out. 'Course they're also offering far better treatments than old Marcus could ever dream of. Lots of doctors should spend some time sharpening up their people skills. In the old days the trusted family physician would make a house call and spend all night holding your hand watching you die. Nowadays he offers an injection in his office and you're up and around in a day or two. Personally, I'd opt for the latter.
no doubt it would be cheaper.
Plus, aside from emergency rooms, good luck finding a doctor late at night. The one advantage alternative "medicine" types have is they lay on hands and spend more time with patients. Along the lines of Marcus Welby. A lot of that is missing in today's medicine. Doctors want to get 'em in and get 'em out. 'Course they're also offering far better treatments than old Marcus could ever dream of. Lots of doctors should spend some time sharpening up their people skills. In the old days the trusted family physician would make a house call and spend all night holding your hand watching you die. Nowadays he offers an injection in his office and you're up and around in a day or two. Personally, I'd opt for the latter.
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walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Until nothing else works, then you might but if saying that makes you feel good....
leswp1
Well-known member
Re: Acupuncture
Absolutes make me nervous. Personally I don't care if something is placebo or has a bunch of studies supporting it. If it works then it is good.
I used homeopathic stuff to start my labor. The midwife said nothing was happening when I was checked. I took something and was in labor with in the hour. Was it placebo? don't know and don't care. It worked and I wasn't induced. Had back pain so severe I couldn't breathe without my knees buckling. Saw the chiropractor and had significant relief immediately. Again- I don't care if it was placebo.
More convincing to me was giving my 9 month old a homeopathic remedy and seeing him respond with drastic change in sx. Placebo by proxy? Have seen a c5-6 quadriplegic get acupuncture and function at c7-8 level within days. No one on the medical team had an explanation as there was no other intervention happening and the injury/level was well documented. Placebo or not I am pretty sure that guy was happy with the result.
Main point- if it works and does no harm- good. If the person administering treatment promises absolute cure and/or implies failure is because of the persons lack in some way- not good. Traditional medicine fails when it shouldn't and works when it shouldn't. Same with Integrative medicine.
I have a difficult time discounting whole disciplines simply because I don't understand how they work or they haven't found a way to effectively study them. Have been doing this long enough to see more than one absolute treatment, backed by medical research, be dismissed/debunked/drastically changed. Hormone replacement therapy, cholesterol treatments, diabetes treatments, use of decongestants, antibiotics or not for certain conditions, tests that we had to have done at certain times done less often or not done at all.... 30 yrs ago all these things were absolutely, positively done a certain way. After watching I am more likely to withhold judgment.
Absolutes make me nervous. Personally I don't care if something is placebo or has a bunch of studies supporting it. If it works then it is good.
I used homeopathic stuff to start my labor. The midwife said nothing was happening when I was checked. I took something and was in labor with in the hour. Was it placebo? don't know and don't care. It worked and I wasn't induced. Had back pain so severe I couldn't breathe without my knees buckling. Saw the chiropractor and had significant relief immediately. Again- I don't care if it was placebo.
More convincing to me was giving my 9 month old a homeopathic remedy and seeing him respond with drastic change in sx. Placebo by proxy? Have seen a c5-6 quadriplegic get acupuncture and function at c7-8 level within days. No one on the medical team had an explanation as there was no other intervention happening and the injury/level was well documented. Placebo or not I am pretty sure that guy was happy with the result.
Main point- if it works and does no harm- good. If the person administering treatment promises absolute cure and/or implies failure is because of the persons lack in some way- not good. Traditional medicine fails when it shouldn't and works when it shouldn't. Same with Integrative medicine.
I have a difficult time discounting whole disciplines simply because I don't understand how they work or they haven't found a way to effectively study them. Have been doing this long enough to see more than one absolute treatment, backed by medical research, be dismissed/debunked/drastically changed. Hormone replacement therapy, cholesterol treatments, diabetes treatments, use of decongestants, antibiotics or not for certain conditions, tests that we had to have done at certain times done less often or not done at all.... 30 yrs ago all these things were absolutely, positively done a certain way. After watching I am more likely to withhold judgment.
Re: Acupuncture
Yes we do things differently now than 30 years ago because of studies and experimentation. We have learned what works and discarded what doesn't. That's what science is all about. And it's a process that never ends. For the most part, chiropractic remains rooted in its 19th century delusions about "subluxations." They haven't proven it. Haven't tried. And presumably never will. Why should they bother? There are so many credulous people out there willing to suspend common sense. As to homeopathy, have you tried Jelly Bellys? They taste better, are cheaper and have just as much medicinal value as homeopathic "remedies." Or you could call your neighborhood witch doctor. After all, you wouldn't want to be judgmental about his "discipline."
Yes we do things differently now than 30 years ago because of studies and experimentation. We have learned what works and discarded what doesn't. That's what science is all about. And it's a process that never ends. For the most part, chiropractic remains rooted in its 19th century delusions about "subluxations." They haven't proven it. Haven't tried. And presumably never will. Why should they bother? There are so many credulous people out there willing to suspend common sense. As to homeopathy, have you tried Jelly Bellys? They taste better, are cheaper and have just as much medicinal value as homeopathic "remedies." Or you could call your neighborhood witch doctor. After all, you wouldn't want to be judgmental about his "discipline."
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WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Acupuncture
I apologize as I played a large part in hijacking the thread. Here are some things I think may be helpful although they in no way constitute medical advice.
Navigating the medical system is difficult. Keep track of everything that has been tried. Take note of type of medication, dosage, time taken, reason for stopping, if it was taken as directed, any side effects etc. Also note who you have seen and when. This includes specialists. When you have something that has proven difficult to treat, handing a the physician a piece of paper with past treatments, no matter what they are, is incredibly helpful. It can save a lot of time and can allow them to focus on other issues or ask deeper questions about prior treatments.
I would assume you have a primary care doc. They should be the "general" that keeps track of the whole picture. I would assume you have seen a specialist. If not, I strongly advise talking to your doc about it. A gastroenterologist and/or an endocrinologist may be helpful from what you provided. I am not sure if there are insurance issues but that would be a place to start. There are also surgical options, for whats it worth.
Now as for what David said. I want you to know my bias. I am very biased towards evidence. I rely on science to guide us through our inherent biases and cognitive shortcomings. The advances made in medicine over the last century have been nearly entirely due to the scientific method. That being said, what he told you is bull. He may be lying or deluded but there is absolutely no good evidence to support what he is saying. Physical exam is important. You can tell a lot about a patient by looking at their hands, tongue, etc but can, in no way, diagnose a patient or get significant insight about their "internal functions" from the texture and color of the tongue alone. This is bollocks. There is no anatomical or physiological basis for this and it is akin to voodoo.
Regarding acupuncture spots. There are as many "types" of acupuncture as you can imagine. Each has its own "map." Some believe the whole body maps to the outside of the ear and they can treat nearly any ailment through ear needling. There is no anatomical or physiological basis for this. This is bollocks. When acupuncture "works" in a controlled setting, it works regardless of where they put the needle. Or even if the needle deeply punctures the skin or not.
Regarding the "oriental herb program." Be very skeptical. "Natural" is one of the most worthless words in the English language. Many herbal supplements contain active substance that are poorly studied. They are easily contaminated. Vitamins and herbs are regulated the same as food which means they do not have to be shown to be effective and the company itself is responsible for deeming them "safe." It is very much a fox watching the hen house type of situation. Often, when we do not know what is causing a patient's symptoms, we find they are taking an herbal supplement from GNC, Walgreens, etc that is making them more anti-coagulated, raising or lowering their blood pressure, etc. These are not benign substances. They are poorly regulated medications.
I apologize as I played a large part in hijacking the thread. Here are some things I think may be helpful although they in no way constitute medical advice.
Navigating the medical system is difficult. Keep track of everything that has been tried. Take note of type of medication, dosage, time taken, reason for stopping, if it was taken as directed, any side effects etc. Also note who you have seen and when. This includes specialists. When you have something that has proven difficult to treat, handing a the physician a piece of paper with past treatments, no matter what they are, is incredibly helpful. It can save a lot of time and can allow them to focus on other issues or ask deeper questions about prior treatments.
I would assume you have a primary care doc. They should be the "general" that keeps track of the whole picture. I would assume you have seen a specialist. If not, I strongly advise talking to your doc about it. A gastroenterologist and/or an endocrinologist may be helpful from what you provided. I am not sure if there are insurance issues but that would be a place to start. There are also surgical options, for whats it worth.
Now as for what David said. I want you to know my bias. I am very biased towards evidence. I rely on science to guide us through our inherent biases and cognitive shortcomings. The advances made in medicine over the last century have been nearly entirely due to the scientific method. That being said, what he told you is bull. He may be lying or deluded but there is absolutely no good evidence to support what he is saying. Physical exam is important. You can tell a lot about a patient by looking at their hands, tongue, etc but can, in no way, diagnose a patient or get significant insight about their "internal functions" from the texture and color of the tongue alone. This is bollocks. There is no anatomical or physiological basis for this and it is akin to voodoo.
Regarding acupuncture spots. There are as many "types" of acupuncture as you can imagine. Each has its own "map." Some believe the whole body maps to the outside of the ear and they can treat nearly any ailment through ear needling. There is no anatomical or physiological basis for this. This is bollocks. When acupuncture "works" in a controlled setting, it works regardless of where they put the needle. Or even if the needle deeply punctures the skin or not.
Regarding the "oriental herb program." Be very skeptical. "Natural" is one of the most worthless words in the English language. Many herbal supplements contain active substance that are poorly studied. They are easily contaminated. Vitamins and herbs are regulated the same as food which means they do not have to be shown to be effective and the company itself is responsible for deeming them "safe." It is very much a fox watching the hen house type of situation. Often, when we do not know what is causing a patient's symptoms, we find they are taking an herbal supplement from GNC, Walgreens, etc that is making them more anti-coagulated, raising or lowering their blood pressure, etc. These are not benign substances. They are poorly regulated medications.
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walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: Acupuncture
I've been to several chiros never heard the word subluxation until here.
Re: Acupuncture
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Sincerely,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Highland_Cattle_bull.jpg
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
Sincerely,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Highland_Cattle_bull.jpg
WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Acupuncture
Cool. They should publish the results to share these findings with the rest of the world. I am not trying to be particularly mean but you should know this type of thing convinces only the credulous in the medical field.
Largely, an anecdote is worthless with regards to advancing knowledge. It can be useful to illustrate a point, among other things, but if someone were to use an anecdote to justify a treatment during rounds you **** well better duck because the attending (if he or she is worth their salt) will come swinging.
Medical doctors are just as susceptible to confirmation biases and human shortcomings. We overcome this largely with the scientific method.
It is telling that this was at a conference. This is not peer reviewed. I have heard much bull**** at a "MEDICAL conference by a medical Dr." Publish it. Let others critique it, replicate it, and build on it.
I have read most every major paper on acupuncture over the last decade. I, and others, have made these conclusions. Please let me know which you disagree with and if possible, provide a paper, review article or expert opinion.
1. There is no convincing evidence that meridians exist. When acupuncture has an effect, it does not correlate to any particular belief system in acupuncture and the needle location does not make a difference.
2. The better one controls the study, the less of effect one sees
3. Acupuncture works best on subjective metrics like pain and feelings of shortness of breath but fails to provide objective improvement in areas like pulmonary function tests
4. In some studies, it does not even matter if acupuncture needles are inserted at all, the effect is still seen. Toothpicks work better than acupuncture for lower back pain.
Reference: Arch Intern Med. 2009;169(9):858-866 A Randomized Trial Comparing Acupuncture, Simulated Acupuncture, and Usual Care for Chronic Low Back Pain
I do not have a blanket dismissal of alternative medicine. I find it fascinating. I read about it in my spare time and I know a fair bit about most types. I do, however, require evidence. I agree every discipline has charlatans and great practitioners but solid evidence is a **** good way to determine the difference.
Cool. They should publish the results to share these findings with the rest of the world. I am not trying to be particularly mean but you should know this type of thing convinces only the credulous in the medical field.
Largely, an anecdote is worthless with regards to advancing knowledge. It can be useful to illustrate a point, among other things, but if someone were to use an anecdote to justify a treatment during rounds you **** well better duck because the attending (if he or she is worth their salt) will come swinging.
Medical doctors are just as susceptible to confirmation biases and human shortcomings. We overcome this largely with the scientific method.
It is telling that this was at a conference. This is not peer reviewed. I have heard much bull**** at a "MEDICAL conference by a medical Dr." Publish it. Let others critique it, replicate it, and build on it.
I have read most every major paper on acupuncture over the last decade. I, and others, have made these conclusions. Please let me know which you disagree with and if possible, provide a paper, review article or expert opinion.
1. There is no convincing evidence that meridians exist. When acupuncture has an effect, it does not correlate to any particular belief system in acupuncture and the needle location does not make a difference.
2. The better one controls the study, the less of effect one sees
3. Acupuncture works best on subjective metrics like pain and feelings of shortness of breath but fails to provide objective improvement in areas like pulmonary function tests
4. In some studies, it does not even matter if acupuncture needles are inserted at all, the effect is still seen. Toothpicks work better than acupuncture for lower back pain.
Reference: Arch Intern Med. 2009;169(9):858-866 A Randomized Trial Comparing Acupuncture, Simulated Acupuncture, and Usual Care for Chronic Low Back Pain
I do not have a blanket dismissal of alternative medicine. I find it fascinating. I read about it in my spare time and I know a fair bit about most types. I do, however, require evidence. I agree every discipline has charlatans and great practitioners but solid evidence is a **** good way to determine the difference.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Acupuncture
Sorry but my chi is just fine. I don't buy into it.
Besides, neither treat an underlying issue. They are both treating the symptoms temporarily. You're better off buying a bottle of ibuprofen or a bottle of Jack.
If nothing else works, then they haven't figured out a medical reason yet. Saying that doesn't make me feel good, it makes me sad to know that people are spending a lot of money on this. They aren't asking why your back is hurting, they just make it stop for a few days and then you're back K in handing over more cash. Whether it's the placebo effect or releases endorphins, neither treat the underlying condition.
Sorry but my chi is just fine. I don't buy into it.
Besides, neither treat an underlying issue. They are both treating the symptoms temporarily. You're better off buying a bottle of ibuprofen or a bottle of Jack.
If nothing else works, then they haven't figured out a medical reason yet. Saying that doesn't make me feel good, it makes me sad to know that people are spending a lot of money on this. They aren't asking why your back is hurting, they just make it stop for a few days and then you're back K in handing over more cash. Whether it's the placebo effect or releases endorphins, neither treat the underlying condition.
WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Acupuncture
Please do a little reading. Next time "Dr. Magic Fingers" does his stuff, why not ask him? The theory of chiropractic is not secret and all you have to do is look it up. Start with D. D. Palmer. I don't get the feeling you're really interested.
Please do a little reading. Next time "Dr. Magic Fingers" does his stuff, why not ask him? The theory of chiropractic is not secret and all you have to do is look it up. Start with D. D. Palmer. I don't get the feeling you're really interested.
WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Acupuncture
You say absolutes make you nervous yet in the same breath, say "if it works then it is good."
Saying you do not care if something is a placebo or has a bunch of studies supporting basically excuses you from the big boys table. There is really no point in discussing after that.
You say absolutes make you nervous yet in the same breath, say "if it works then it is good."
Saying you do not care if something is a placebo or has a bunch of studies supporting basically excuses you from the big boys table. There is really no point in discussing after that.
walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: Acupuncture
What I'm interested in is pain relief. I could go to my GP and get a script for oxycodone or I could go to a pain management clinic and get a rhizotomy. But I don't like sound of either one of those.
WisconsinWildcard
The plural of anecdote is not data
Re: Acupuncture
I have seen a C4-C5 quadriplegic receive acupuncture and sadly pass unexpectedly overnight without explanation. Any conclusions we make would be subject to post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
I have seen a C4-C5 quadriplegic receive acupuncture and sadly pass unexpectedly overnight without explanation. Any conclusions we make would be subject to post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Acupuncture
He said bollocks. Common term used by Brits to infer the word we yanks call bullsht
He said bollocks. Common term used by Brits to infer the word we yanks call bullsht
dxmnkd316
Lucia Apologist
Re: Acupuncture
Ding Ding. I'm sorry but no one should be looking to an examination of the tongue to diagnose or cure anything. This is as bad as it gets when it comes to quackery.
Ding Ding. I'm sorry but no one should be looking to an examination of the tongue to diagnose or cure anything. This is as bad as it gets when it comes to quackery.