5 dollar gas...are we ready?

[JF_Gophers]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Actually I seem to recall having this discussion in a high school class , of all places. We were discussing the merits of government funded projects, and Doppler radar rings a bell. ..see a few cups of coffee and the cobwebs just fall away…

Wasn't the Internet funded by the Government to begin with (along with private entities that helped create it). I'd say thats a pretty big staple now.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I don't think he said anything about relaxing the environmental/emissions regulations....

Hehe, I’ll keep it civil this time, I promise.

I am not against regulations that protect against the people who did some bad shiat back in the day. However, its another issue when they get in the way and prevent good things. I am talking about the government giving out money and providing favorites in the energy market. Oil might be dirty, but corn ethanol isn’t clean either, but on a per energy basis, it receives much more than oil. Wind and solar receive more on a per energy basis as well. From my point of view, that isn’t very good!

You won’t hear any argument from me here. Companies that come in, ravage someplace, than leave it in ****ty condition can not be allowed to do this. Mountain top strip mining comes to mind here. AWFUL..in a word. Sadly, coal is powering much of the US. (40% in 2008 domestically )

..I won’t pretend to have all the ideas, all the answers to everything. My scope is limited like most, and what I do know about some of our practices is a bit disturbing. Subsidies bother me. Regulations can bother me, but I am sure someone can dig up stories about how they have done very good for certain communities. Its not black and white by any means.

 

[unofan]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I was under the impression that he was just suggesting doing away with all subsidies that favor one type of energy over another, so a less efficient/practical technology isn't used simply because it is being propped up by the government. I don't think he is advocating letting energy companies have a free-for-all with no regulations whatsoever. I'm not big on government regulating everything and even I can see that it would be bad idea to do that.

Right, but in the absence of a magic bullet (something that is abundant, cheap, and clean)...reasonable people can make different choices.
If California wishes to subsidize clean energy because they don't feel the market adequately compensates for pollution caused by fossil fuels, that's their perogative. You can agree or disagree with that policy choice subjectively, but it's not objectively wrong.

The only thing that's both abundant and cheap at this point in time are fossil fuels. But part of the reason they're cheap is that the markets don't adequately reflect the costs associated with their potential (or some might say inherent) environmental damage.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I was under the impression that he was just suggesting doing away with all subsidies that favor one type of energy over another, so a less efficient/practical technology isn't used simply because it is being propped up by the government. I don't think he is advocating letting energy companies have a free-for-all with no regulations whatsoever. I'm not big on government regulating everything and even I can see that it would be bad idea to do that.

Pretty much. I am advocating for energy to compete freely without favoritism. All forms of energy have to have some forms of regulation. Starting with my favorite nuclear, we need to continue to adhere to the strict safety of current operating plants. Coal can’t be allowed to run rampant and destroy mountaintops. I am not an environmentalist, but anyone who doesn’t abhor what they do REALLY hates the earth. Wind farms shouldn’t be located in certain areas as well. There have been reported human health risks living near them, and they kill a lot of birds every year. Current fraking/ drilling methods to get natural gas can also have an effect on water supplies, and municipalities.

Drawbacks exist, and the commonwealth is entitled to some protection against reckless pursuit of them. Again, no argument here.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

RighThe only thing that's both abundant and cheap at this point in time are fossil fuels. But part of the reason they're cheap is that the markets don't adequately reflect the costs associated with their potential (or some might say inherent) environmental damage.

“green energy’s dirty little secret is that they aren’t necessarily cleaner than their counterparts. Energy policy should embrace that energy will always have a dirty side to it ; there is no such thing as a free lunch. People don’t want to hear that, and will always need to polarize the issue between “good” energy and “bad” energy. The truth is, both are more equivalent than most would care to admit.

 

[walrus]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Because if it isn't (within a narrow margin of error), there's about 100 different laws being broken. If you suspect otherwise, call your state government's department of commerce.

I seem to recall reading, that in some states its legal to have more ethanol than the posted amount

 

[Almington]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

“green energy’s dirty little secret is that they aren’t necessarily cleaner than their counterparts. Energy policy should embrace that energy will always have a dirty side to it ; there is no such thing as a free lunch. People don’t want to hear that, and will always need to polarize the issue between “good” energy and “bad” energy. The truth is, both are more equivalent than most would care to admit.

It really depends on the energy. Alternative fuels are not much better then fossil fuels, particularly when you start adding in transportation and distribution costs.

Looking at non-combustion energy sources, and the life-cycle pollution cost on a per energy basis are MUCH lower than any combustion energy source (fossil or non-fossil).

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

It really depends on the energy. Alternative fuels are not much better then fossil fuels, particularly when you start adding in transportation and distribution costs.

Looking at non-combustion energy sources, and the life-cycle pollution cost on a per energy basis are MUCH lower than any combustion energy source (fossil or non-fossil).

Another consideration are tracts of land needed for non combustion sources. Wind requires a lot not only for the turbines, but for the additional cabling needed. Terrestrial based crops like soy or corn require huge amounts of land to grow. Woody biomass is a joke, as people assume its renewable because the trees will just grow back. People also forget what actually happens to the land when you have to grow corn and fertilize it. Fossil fuels don’t require the large land space since they are stored and used differently.

 

[Almington]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Another consideration are tracts of land needed for non combustion sources. Wind requires a lot not only for the turbines, but for the additional cabling needed. Terrestrial based crops like soy or corn require huge amounts of land to grow. Woody biomass is a joke, as people assume its renewable because the trees will just grow back. People also forget what actually happens to the land when you have to grow corn and fertilize it. Fossil fuels don’t require the large land space since they are stored and used differently.

A wind farm in the Midwest uses no more land then a field of oil derricks in Texas or Oklahoma, and the transmission lines are no different then those used currently for electricity distribution. Wind powers biggest issues are that it has a natural cap on how much energy that can be obtained from it that is much lower then our current energy demand and the variability of production and storage issues.

Biomass is renewable, how efficient it is is a different question. I read a report on the production cost of ethanol that calculated that for every gallon of gas (in equivalent energy) that was put into production, 1.1 gallons were produced. Shale oil was about a 1:1.25 ratio and traditional oil and coal were about 1: 3 or 4 (depending). This just looked at the production costs (extraction, refining, ect) and didn't consider the capital energy costs.

 

[Tundra]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

It's RENEWABLE energy of wind, solar, water (hydro) and earth compared to finite sources of fossil that will eventually run out sooner or later. So we need to get a move on making RENEWABLE energy cheap enough. side benefit is it's a "green" energy, less damage to the environment. and it's abundant.

And "renewable" ethanol is stupid since we're converting food into fuel and driving food prices higher around the world. Not to mention starvation and unrest.

Some guy in China (graduate student from Aussie) started a solar panel company (worth $billions) making efficient solar panels by using thinner connection wires making it more efficient and cheaper so these "alternative" "renewable" "green" energy is coming. ??? is where USA going to be in these new energy markets.

And who started using solar 1st? NASA.

GaAs based multijunction devices are the most efficient solar cells to date. In October 2010, triple junction metamorphic cell reached a record high of 42.3%.[25]

This technology is currently being utilized in the Mars Exploration Rover missions which have run far past their 90 day design life.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

A wind farm in the Midwest uses no more land then a field of oil derricks in Texas or Oklahoma...

This makes no sense without putting it on a land per energy extraction rate basis.

A decent well can put out 1000 barrels of oil per day. At 1.7MWh per barrel, that's an equivalent of 71 MW. The largest wind turbine in the world (according to Google) is 6 MW, and that takes up far more land than an oil well. On a power per land use basis, it's not even close.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I'm surprised no one's tried using oxygen fuel cells (and yes, I realize it's expensive at this time). And then figure out a way to extract it from air so, as long as you're in open air, you have a way to fuel the vehicle. If a human can do it, why can't we artificially replicate it.

Expensive at this point? Sure. In the future? Who knows.

 

[Almington]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

This makes no sense without putting it on a land per energy extraction rate basis.

A decent well can put out 1000 barrels of oil per day. At 1.7MWh per barrel, that's an equivalent of 71 MW. The largest wind turbine in the world (according to Google) is 6 MW, and that takes up far more land than an oil well. On a power per land use basis, it's not even close.

You are correct, but on an energy/land use basis, nothing is going to be better than fossil fuels.

 

[Hopkinja]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Some thoughts: While GaAs solar cells will certainly emit less carbon than fossil fuels, let's not fool ourselves. Eventually those things will get damaged or deteriorate and will need to be replaced. Where is that arsenic going to go? Probably right in the nearest landfill just like all the old computer components.

It's like the compact fluorescent bulbs...they're wonderfully green until you have to dispose of them. Then you have a mercury poisoning problem. And LEDs have different poisons in them.

Nothing is truly green. You just have to pick how much damage you're going to do and to whom.

 

[Almington]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Some thoughts: While GaAs solar cells will certainly emit less carbon than fossil fuels, let's not fool ourselves. Eventually those things will get damaged or deteriorate and will need to be replaced. Where is that arsenic going to go? Probably right in the nearest landfill just like all the old computer components.

It's like the compact fluorescent bulbs...they're wonderfully green until you have to dispose of them. Then you have a mercury poisoning problem. And LEDs have different poisons in them.

Nothing is truly green. You just have to pick how much damage you're going to do and to whom.

As with all current electric devices and components, what is needed is an actual system to properly and safely recycle all the old and broken equipment. It is a problem that we have today, and a problem that will exist in the future.

Everything that humans do, has a impact (generally negative) on the environment, EVERYTHING. That has always been the case and will always be the case until the day humans go extinct.

We are living in the era of cheap energy, and era that is coming to an end. We (society) can either spend money how to hopefully be better prepared and able to adapt to those changes or we can do nothing and be prepared to pay the price later.

 

[BassAle]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I seem to recall reading, that in some states its legal to have more ethanol than the posted amount

pumps around here are usually labled "contains up to 10% ethanol". not sure how you can claim something is "up to" 10% and then intentionally make it 15%

 

[Tundra]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I know you guys keep harping on direct subsidy but I've to wonder how much hidden subsidy we're giving to oil companies.

3rd largest oil producer in the World and we got $5billion TOTAL royalty in 2000?
I wonder how much USA is making in oil royalty now. Alaska with 90%/10%Fed split is making somewhere in the $5billion + range right now just drilling 700k/bpd. With Sarah Palin "windfall" oil royalty taxes worth $2billion/yr. Thank you Sarah for doing the right thing even if you're a flake.

http://www.api.org/aboutoilgas/sectors/explore/oilandnaturalgas.cfm

In 2000, the MMS collected $5 billion in oil and gas royalties. The bulk of this ($4 billion) came from offshore production, with natural gas production generating 60 percent of the royalty revenue. For federal onshore lands, gas production generated over 70 percent of the almost $1 billion in royalties.

Things change and they stay the same.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,809461,00.html

What Senator O'Mahoney meant in particular was the Arabian American Oil Co.'s tax arrangement with Saudi Arabia, through which Aramco last year avoided paying a penny of corporate income tax to the U.S. Treasury.

New Split. Until 1950, Aramco paid Saudi Arabia about 20% royalty on all oil profits. Then, vexed that the U.S. was getting more in income taxes on Aramco profits than Saudi Arabia got in royalties, and spurred by a 50-50 oil-profit split in Venezuela, King Saud decided that Saudi Arabia should get 50% of the oil profits. But instead of increasing royalties, Saudi Arabia passed an income tax which, together with royalties, would take half of Aramco's profits.

Aramco could have fought the tax, since a 1933 agreement with the Saudi Arabian government barred income taxes. But it decided to pay anyway, because the tax did not actually cost Aramco any additional money. It simply shifted the company's tax payments from the U.S. to Saudi Arabia.

 

[Tundra]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

$4.22 ... so up 4cents in 2 days.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I know you guys keep harping on direct subsidy but I've to wonder how much hidden subsidy we're giving to oil companies.

A decent amount. I'm invested in one company that has 3 properties at 90/10 and 2 at 75/25. It's a decent amount per unit, but the depletion is where I'm able to claim it on my taxes as a loss.

 

[walrus]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

pumps around here are usually labled "contains up to 10% ethanol". not sure how you can claim something is "up to" 10% and then intentionally make it 15%

I think in Corn country they can up the amount without relabeling the pump.