5 dollar gas...are we ready?

[LynahFan]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I'm surprised no one's tried using oxygen fuel cells (and yes, I realize it's expensive at this time). And then figure out a way to extract it from air so, as long as you're in open air, you have a way to fuel the vehicle. If a human can do it, why can't we artificially replicate it.

Expensive at this point? Sure. In the future? Who knows.

What is an "oxygen fuel cell?" Fuel cells work by combining a fuel with oxygen to produce electricity. Hydrogen is the most common fuel of choice, but there are many other possibilities (link). In all cases, though, a fuel source + oxygen is required - the same as the human body. Our "fuel source" is the food that we eat, which we combine with the oxygen we breathe to extract the energy we need; we don't live on oxygen alone.

There is no recoverable chemical energy in gaseous, atmospheric oxygen. The only thing you could really do to to it would be to split the two oxygen atoms apart, but that reaction takes energy rather than giving it. That's why oxygen occurs naturally as a diatomic molecule - that is its lowest energy state.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

This makes no sense without putting it on a land per energy extraction rate basis.

A decent well can put out 1000 barrels of oil per day. At 1.7MWh per barrel, that's an equivalent of 71 MW. The largest wind turbine in the world (according to Google) is 6 MW, and that takes up far more land than an oil well. On a power per land use basis, it's not even close.

These were the kind of numbers I was going to list. Most notable was a stripper well ( the kind that is basically getting oil from a depleated well) having more energy per land area than solar/ wind - by maybe one order of magnitude, but maybe less.

But yeah, its not even close. Not by a long shot.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

We should just go drill Mars' oil.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Been hyping it up several times, but an official offer has come in and I am officially moving to 1-2 miles from a new job. Good bye insane driving, high gas prices, and wear and tear on my baby WRX. I am currently spending 200+ $ per month on gas - having that go to <50$/mo will be nice!

We want renewable energy? How about mike pedal bike. My legs are renewable energy, and never stop going. Next up, 400 lb back squat to improve leg efficiency!!

 

[Tundra]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

We want renewable energy? How about mike pedal bike. My legs are renewable energy, and never stop going. Next up, 400 lb back squat to improve leg efficiency!!

Very nice. good luck with your new job.

If you're wondering why gasoline is $4 when oil is $106 ... vs 2008 when it was $4 with oil at $148. Refining margins tripled (300% increase) for 1 company so oil/refiners are just charging us more (getting better margins). Although they do have a point about oil price difference $106 US vs $117 Brent. So you can argue it's the European demand that is causing the gasoline price hike but it's a weak argument.

Looks like the royalty tax is around 12-15% in the USA one of the lowest in the world. So while Russia (#2 producer) balances their budget using oil, Norway saved $300billion from their oil royalty (government partial owner), while Alaska saved $50billion in permanent fund from state cut of the oil royalty ,,,, Republicans are calling for more drilling and lowering oil taxes to offset the increase in revenue since it'll create jobs.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/05/us-usrefiners-idUSTRE7443GX20110505

Holly and Frontier posted market-topping quarterly results, buoyed by strong margins. Western, whose margins nearly tripled, said its profit fell short of estimates on a weather-related outage at its El Paso refinery.

A glut of oil in the U.S. midwest and tighter global supply has meant that price of the U.S. benchmark is trading at a discount to other light/sweet oils like Brent.

This has helped U.S. refiners, including Murphy Oil (MUR.N), Marathon Oil (MRO.N) and Tesoro Corp (TSO.N), improve margins and post strong quarterly results.

However, Chevron Corp (CVX.N) -- the second-largest U.S. oil company -- said the unexpected rise in refining margins was short-lived given the growing glut worldwide.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Here's a refreshingly honest article from an acclaimed, thoughtful environmentalist.

Cliff's notes version: we're doomed, and environmentalists haven't come up with any serious alternate narratives for the future.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

These were the kind of numbers I was going to list. Most notable was a stripper well ( the kind that is basically getting oil from a depleated well) having more energy per land area than solar/ wind - by maybe one order of magnitude, but maybe less.

But yeah, its not even close. Not by a long shot.

Plus you have to spend lots of $$$ and use up more land to build the necessary transmission lines (which also have to pass muster when it comes to environmental impact studies) to connect the wind farms to the grid (assuming the major wind farms are being placed in remote areas away from population centers).

How much power can we get out of the ocean tides? Or are we still years away from doing that on a practical basis? The one benefit of that is at least we wouldn't have to spend much on transmission lines to connect it to anything, since the bulk of our population is near the coast.

 

[walrus]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

How much power can we get out of the ocean tides? Or are we still years away from doing that on a practical basis? The one benefit of that is at least we wouldn't have to spend much on transmission lines to connect it to anything, since the bulk of our population is near the coast.

There is a company in Maine who has an experimental unit generating electricity in Cobscook bay. Maine has significant tides, as much as 20 feet in the downeast area, Bay of Fundy. Fisherman are already *****ing about the unit being in prime lobster fishing grounds and its a pretty small unit I doubt its 50 by 50 ft. anchored in one spot

 

[Hopkinja]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

What is an "oxygen fuel cell?" Fuel cells work by combining a fuel with oxygen to produce electricity. Hydrogen is the most common fuel of choice, but there are many other possibilities (link). In all cases, though, a fuel source + oxygen is required - the same as the human body. Our "fuel source" is the food that we eat, which we combine with the oxygen we breathe to extract the energy we need; we don't live on oxygen alone.

There is no recoverable chemical energy in gaseous, atmospheric oxygen. The only thing you could really do to to it would be to split the two oxygen atoms apart, but that reaction takes energy rather than giving it. That's why oxygen occurs naturally as a diatomic molecule - that is its lowest energy state.

And actually, oxygen is fairly easy to recover from air. It just takes electricity to compress the air, and there are several technologies which can do it. But unless you need higher flame temperatures (such as in blast furnaces), there's no point in using pure oxygen for combustion. It costs more energy to recover it than you'll get from the combustion.

But as LynahFan said, the key to our energy problems is not the oxidizer, it's the fuel. And although everyone talks about hydrogen as being the fuel of the future, right now it almost exclusively comes from natural gas, coal and other carbon-based sources. Hydrogen from electrolysis of water is a long way away from being competitive at industrial scales. And even then, the electricity to make it still comes from carbon based fuels. So why bother with the extra processing step?

Bottom line: nothing changes until there is a step change in our power generation technology. Go nuke or go home.

 

[JF_Gophers]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Crisis averted. Gas went down $0.05 by my house this morning.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Well, I suppose there's always this.

Of course, even if we get it to work, it'll be decades before the cost of it will be remotely practical I imagine.

 

[unh_hockey]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Crisis averted. Gas went down $0.05 by my house this morning.

Yes. Sharp decline due to fears that the global recovery isn’t what it was cracked up to be. Markets took a hit, and some think oil/ gas price might have peaked for the summer. The NY times thinks that gas prices might fall by memorial day.

 

[aparch]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Yes. Sharp decline due to fears that the global recovery isn’t what it was cracked up to be. Markets took a hit, and some think oil/ gas price might have peaked for the summer. The NY times thinks that gas prices might fall by memorial day.

Ha. Ha. Ha. They haven't been to the Midwest where gas has ALWAYS jumped a dime or so before the weekend because of the travelers.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Well, I suppose there's always this.

Of course, even if we get it to work, it'll be decades before the cost of it will be remotely practical I imagine.

So I won't be able to put a Mr. Fusion on my Delorean next year?

 

[Almington]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Here's a refreshingly honest article from an acclaimed, thoughtful environmentalist.

Cliff's notes version: we're doomed, and environmentalists haven't come up with any serious alternate narratives for the future.

I have come to that same conclusion, that the demands of the society at large will prevent any real attempt at change, that change will be swamped by more basic demands. True envionmental advancement will require that people place society ahead of themselves and that is incompatible with a capitalistic market based society like we have today.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Ha. Ha. Ha. They haven't been to the Midwest where gas has ALWAYS jumped a dime or so before the weekend because of the travelers.

That's not exclusive to the midwest.

 

[Patman]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Very nice. good luck with your new job.

If you're wondering why gasoline is $4 when oil is $106 ... vs 2008 when it was $4 with oil at $148. Refining margins tripled (300% increase) for 1 company so oil/refiners are just charging us more (getting better margins). Although they do have a point about oil price difference $106 US vs $117 Brent. So you can argue it's the European demand that is causing the gasoline price hike but it's a weak argument.

Looks like the royalty tax is around 12-15% in the USA one of the lowest in the world. So while Russia (#2 producer) balances their budget using oil, Norway saved $300billion from their oil royalty (government partial owner), while Alaska saved $50billion in permanent fund from state cut of the oil royalty ,,,, Republicans are calling for more drilling and lowering oil taxes to offset the increase in revenue since it'll create jobs.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/05/us-usrefiners-idUSTRE7443GX20110505

How about we reduce the barriers to market entry? How about we give a reason for people to pursue refineries... how about we give people reason to try to do things better than their competitors by reducing their costs by eliminating red tape?

 

[Patman]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

I have come to that same conclusion, that the demands of the society at large will prevent any real attempt at change, that change will be swamped by more basic demands. True envionmental advancement will require that people place society ahead of themselves and that is incompatible with a capitalistic market based society like we have today.

I would have a hard time believing we have a capitalistic market based situation when nuclear is not a serious solution considering that a rapid expansion could seriously undercut advancing fuel costs... granted that doesn't drive a car engine but if electricity becomes cheap i think the market will be more flexible than you're willing to imagine.

I do not trust government to be able to stand in for our "long term interests" as they are more concerned about their own short-term interests and convincing people that they are great for various fallacious reasons.

As for society-at-large... if things are as dire as people suggest then it would seem that change will come. What is the harm we're seeking to prevent by not letting it take its course? I think all this assumes that any change that does come along with be in the form of a shock as opposed to a trend... I would think that we're seeing that this isn't the case and the only real shocks tend to come from the lies embedded into the market and reinforced by the gov't (see 2008)... that is, shocks tend to be fiscal and not in terms of the availability of raw resources. So, so long as the resource availability does not change due to a shock (financial collapse, war, disaster, etc.) then we will curve into the new situation and shift resources.

I think we do need to come to terms with the lies in our society and the polite lies we tell ourselves... that will go a long way... but our fuel issue will not just appear overnight and we wake up one day and see it before us... no, it'll change due to the dynamics of availability and people will adjust and markets will open.

edit: I find it alarming that so often the solution isn't "we need to find a new way to do something better" but "we need to control people"... granted in both we are trying to ensure our own future... but funny, there's that cost issue again.

 

[Handyman]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

How about we reduce the barriers to market entry? How about we give a reason for people to pursue refineries... how about we give people reason to try to do things better than their competitors by reducing their costs by eliminating red tape?

Eliminating red tape is a great idea...worked so well on Wall Street

 

[walrus]

Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?

Eliminating red tape is a great idea...worked so well on Wall Street

I'd say break up the monopolies the oil companies have right now would do far more than eliminating any red tape would do. Used to be 20 or so major oil companies, now their are 8, make it 20 again and maybe they won't be price fixing so easily