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5 dollar gas...are we ready?
- Thread starter unh_hockey
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unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Are you talking about regular octane or 93? I noticed a plateau a little here too, but my fill ups are routinely 50 dollars or so. Still, I am ahead of where I want to be budget wise, so its not a huge deal. More concerning are the cost of everything else which seems to be creeping up this year, such as food back in the feb/march time frame. At least my car is running well since 29 mpg for a Subaru wrx is pretty good. God bless E-books and less aggressive driving.
As for last year, we were paying roughly 1 dollar less per gallon. Not terribly sure on the figures, but I saw Brent spot orders finishing roughly at 122$ the other day ( Bloomberg.com). We are still a little ways off from the 140$ / bl in 2008, but seem to be encroaching it. I also read somewhere that the demand is relatively inelastic and isn’t changing too much at the present. I wonder how this will fare in the economy in terms of consumer spending, and gas consumption during those peak months. Will people cut back?
Are you talking about regular octane or 93? I noticed a plateau a little here too, but my fill ups are routinely 50 dollars or so. Still, I am ahead of where I want to be budget wise, so its not a huge deal. More concerning are the cost of everything else which seems to be creeping up this year, such as food back in the feb/march time frame. At least my car is running well since 29 mpg for a Subaru wrx is pretty good. God bless E-books and less aggressive driving.
As for last year, we were paying roughly 1 dollar less per gallon. Not terribly sure on the figures, but I saw Brent spot orders finishing roughly at 122$ the other day ( Bloomberg.com). We are still a little ways off from the 140$ / bl in 2008, but seem to be encroaching it. I also read somewhere that the demand is relatively inelastic and isn’t changing too much at the present. I wonder how this will fare in the economy in terms of consumer spending, and gas consumption during those peak months. Will people cut back?
XYZ
Smoking in the selection room.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
An article delineating just how out of touch political decision makers are these days:
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...yce?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
The basic crux is this. California is struggling and yet they want to enforce percentages of their electricity from the grid to be from a “renewable” source. This will essentially hike the cost of energy for everyone involved. These pencil pushers just don’t understand the math , nor the impact on the people who have to pay for this. Instead, it looks good for whatever reason they put on their campaign ads so they can get re elected.
It comes down to one thing; the energy policy in this country is bad. Its dictated by people with no acumen on the subject, nor any desire to do the right thing.
An article delineating just how out of touch political decision makers are these days:
http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...yce?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
The basic crux is this. California is struggling and yet they want to enforce percentages of their electricity from the grid to be from a “renewable” source. This will essentially hike the cost of energy for everyone involved. These pencil pushers just don’t understand the math , nor the impact on the people who have to pay for this. Instead, it looks good for whatever reason they put on their campaign ads so they can get re elected.
It comes down to one thing; the energy policy in this country is bad. Its dictated by people with no acumen on the subject, nor any desire to do the right thing.
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
What is the "right thing"? Is the "right thing" for the short term the same as the "right thing" in the long term?
If a renewable standard the right way to go? I don't know. I do know that incresing the fraction of electricity from renewable is necessary looking at the long term availibiltily and reliability.
The true long term energy solution isn't supply based, but demand based. Overall energy demand must decrease to a level that is sustainable over the long term.
What is the "right thing"? Is the "right thing" for the short term the same as the "right thing" in the long term?
If a renewable standard the right way to go? I don't know. I do know that incresing the fraction of electricity from renewable is necessary looking at the long term availibiltily and reliability.
The true long term energy solution isn't supply based, but demand based. Overall energy demand must decrease to a level that is sustainable over the long term.
aparch
Acetaminamerican
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
It had been $4.29 for at least a week at the Speedway and Citgo by work. Needed gas last night, and was shocked when the pump read $4.45.
Thought about snapping a cell pic to upload to Twitter/Facebook... but then I didn't want to become a poster child for WhiteWhine.com.
Regular 87 octane. With 10% to 12% ethanol mixed in (Chicagoland does this).
It had been $4.29 for at least a week at the Speedway and Citgo by work. Needed gas last night, and was shocked when the pump read $4.45.
Thought about snapping a cell pic to upload to Twitter/Facebook... but then I didn't want to become a poster child for WhiteWhine.com.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
My opinion is that the right thing is to help rather than worsen our economy. Pursuing alternative energy is expensive, so why should those costs be placed upon the people who are already struggling? On the flip side, you have Google exploring solar and wind, but they are absorbing those costs . I have no issue with private enterprises seeking alternative solutions - but why should the public be forced to front the bill for scams like corn ethanol?
A true sustainable energy plan is probably a bit of an oxymoron. In a world with limited resources, are any energy sources we use truly sustainable? Maybe if human population was very low, and we were using woody biomass at a rate it grew back than it would be, but we aren’t. Our population is still growing, and all the low hanging fruit ( who hits oil in their backyards anymore?) are gone. It’s the laws of physics. Eventually we will run out, and I think our energy plan needs to be aware of the physical limitations of what we have. So maybe, I am saying the same thing you are? Remember , im no economist so the lingo loses me a bit.
My opinion is that the right thing is to help rather than worsen our economy. Pursuing alternative energy is expensive, so why should those costs be placed upon the people who are already struggling? On the flip side, you have Google exploring solar and wind, but they are absorbing those costs . I have no issue with private enterprises seeking alternative solutions - but why should the public be forced to front the bill for scams like corn ethanol?
A true sustainable energy plan is probably a bit of an oxymoron. In a world with limited resources, are any energy sources we use truly sustainable? Maybe if human population was very low, and we were using woody biomass at a rate it grew back than it would be, but we aren’t. Our population is still growing, and all the low hanging fruit ( who hits oil in their backyards anymore?) are gone. It’s the laws of physics. Eventually we will run out, and I think our energy plan needs to be aware of the physical limitations of what we have. So maybe, I am saying the same thing you are? Remember , im no economist so the lingo loses me a bit.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Gas here still is E10 , or 10% ethanol. So its 12% out there? And more expensive? Your paying more for 87 than I am for 93 to fill my car.
You have my deepest sympathies.
Regular 87 octane. With 10% to 12% ethanol mixed in (Chicagoland does this).
It had been $4.29 for at least a week at the Speedway and Citgo by work. Needed gas last night, and was shocked when the pump read $4.45.
Thought about snapping a cell pic to upload to Twitter/Facebook... but then I didn't want to become a poster child for WhiteWhine.com.
Gas here still is E10 , or 10% ethanol. So its 12% out there? And more expensive? Your paying more for 87 than I am for 93 to fill my car.
You have my deepest sympathies.
aparch
Acetaminamerican
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
The pumps say E10 on them, but there was talk that the Chicago market may be a test area for a bump up. (And some word from mechanics were that they were using 12% but claiming it's 10%)
Thanks for the sympathies, but I'm the sucker who decided to accept a job down here.
*edit* And, I'm 35 miles from the City too. 
Thankfully, my commute is just 20 miles tops each way in the far west suburbs (to another far west suburb)
The pumps say E10 on them, but there was talk that the Chicago market may be a test area for a bump up. (And some word from mechanics were that they were using 12% but claiming it's 10%)
Thanks for the sympathies, but I'm the sucker who decided to accept a job down here.
*edit* And, I'm 35 miles from the City too. Thankfully, my commute is just 20 miles tops each way in the far west suburbs (to another far west suburb)
Last edited:
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
"To help and not hurt the economy" also depends on the time scale you are looking at. The political expedient solution is to look for short term patches for long term problems. That's the irony of the whole situation, if the US had truly committed to and invested in alternative energy sources for oil and other fossil fuels 40 years ago we may not be in this problem of $5 gas now. We may still be in a similar situation, but until we commit ourselves to changing our behaviors that got us into this mess, we are not going to get out of it. The problem of our reliance on cheep energy isn't going to be solved by having cheep energy, it is just going to delay the real pain.
A sustainable energy police is one that can include all current types of energy (including fossil fuels), it just need to have a "glide path" towards reaching the end goal. Better to have a plan for switching over to renewable and phasing out fossil fuels over the next 50-75 years then it is to continually deal with the volatility in international oil prices.
"To help and not hurt the economy" also depends on the time scale you are looking at. The political expedient solution is to look for short term patches for long term problems. That's the irony of the whole situation, if the US had truly committed to and invested in alternative energy sources for oil and other fossil fuels 40 years ago we may not be in this problem of $5 gas now. We may still be in a similar situation, but until we commit ourselves to changing our behaviors that got us into this mess, we are not going to get out of it. The problem of our reliance on cheep energy isn't going to be solved by having cheep energy, it is just going to delay the real pain.
A sustainable energy police is one that can include all current types of energy (including fossil fuels), it just need to have a "glide path" towards reaching the end goal. Better to have a plan for switching over to renewable and phasing out fossil fuels over the next 50-75 years then it is to continually deal with the volatility in international oil prices.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
This might or might not be true. So far, we have yet to “invent” an energy source capable of providing us with what the big ones can. Oil being a big one is still irreplaceable, as evident by a 2% cut in production ( Libya) causing a lot of market disturbance. Robert Bryce said in his book, “ If we didn’t have oil, we would have to invent it”. The real pain will exist, no doubt about that. When all the easy oil is gone, we will have to cut back by necessity. As I have said for a while, this divergence will be painful for us.
Did you know that there was a program in the early 80s called the aquatic species program that looked at using photosynethic organisms as a means to produce biofuels? The program was terminated in 96 during the Clinton administration once oil was cheap…not that a whole heck of a lot of money was put into it anyway. We didn’t see a need for it with so much cheap oil. John Beneman who was a pioneer in the algae front fought hard to get an alternative to oil come to light, but was well aware of the problems back in the 70s, much as they remain today. Sadly, after meeting him last year, he and others in the field have long since given up on any real effort to pursue these things.
To borrow your verbiage, I think our path to the future needs to include all viable sources, and understand that they will dwindle away. So I guess we would be in agreement here? I will maintain my stance that the cost of alternative should not be passed onto the commonwealth during tough times such as now. The effort google is undertaking is admirable , though - private enterprise leading by example is inspiring.
This might or might not be true. So far, we have yet to “invent” an energy source capable of providing us with what the big ones can. Oil being a big one is still irreplaceable, as evident by a 2% cut in production ( Libya) causing a lot of market disturbance. Robert Bryce said in his book, “ If we didn’t have oil, we would have to invent it”. The real pain will exist, no doubt about that. When all the easy oil is gone, we will have to cut back by necessity. As I have said for a while, this divergence will be painful for us.
Did you know that there was a program in the early 80s called the aquatic species program that looked at using photosynethic organisms as a means to produce biofuels? The program was terminated in 96 during the Clinton administration once oil was cheap…not that a whole heck of a lot of money was put into it anyway. We didn’t see a need for it with so much cheap oil. John Beneman who was a pioneer in the algae front fought hard to get an alternative to oil come to light, but was well aware of the problems back in the 70s, much as they remain today. Sadly, after meeting him last year, he and others in the field have long since given up on any real effort to pursue these things.
To borrow your verbiage, I think our path to the future needs to include all viable sources, and understand that they will dwindle away. So I guess we would be in agreement here? I will maintain my stance that the cost of alternative should not be passed onto the commonwealth during tough times such as now. The effort google is undertaking is admirable , though - private enterprise leading by example is inspiring.
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
$4.18 ... can't remember if we repealed the state gasoline tax again. At least our state budget is in surplus, till our Republican gov Parnell gives away $2billion/yr to oil companies by removing (windfall) oil royalty tax.
Actual oil consumption has DECLINED a bit in the USA. we're still using 22% of world supply (#1) still. It seems like we're exporting refined oil products to Europe and South America as our gasoline prices skyrocket. And Republicans are still calling for oil subsidies "for job creations and energy independence" as these companies make record profits and margins (oil refining margin went up 50% : 2% to 3% if I remember correctly in 2008/09... not sure if it's still going up, or stayed flat)
Until you can get lawmakers (especially Republicans) to agree about removing legacy subsidy (oil/farm). we're going no where fast on energy policy. I think we should remove all energy subsides and start over.
$4.18 ... can't remember if we repealed the state gasoline tax again. At least our state budget is in surplus, till our Republican gov Parnell gives away $2billion/yr to oil companies by removing (windfall) oil royalty tax.
Actual oil consumption has DECLINED a bit in the USA. we're still using 22% of world supply (#1) still. It seems like we're exporting refined oil products to Europe and South America as our gasoline prices skyrocket. And Republicans are still calling for oil subsidies "for job creations and energy independence" as these companies make record profits and margins (oil refining margin went up 50% : 2% to 3% if I remember correctly in 2008/09... not sure if it's still going up, or stayed flat)
Until you can get lawmakers (especially Republicans) to agree about removing legacy subsidy (oil/farm). we're going no where fast on energy policy. I think we should remove all energy subsides and start over.
walrus
Wind up workin' in a gas station
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
How do you know its 10% ethanol, just because the pumps says it doesn't make it so. The gas and Ethanol are mixed at the rack(where truckS fill up for delivery) there is no guarantee its 10%, its cheaper than gas so way not up the limit a wee bit and make some money? Pretty soon you might E15
How do you know its 10% ethanol, just because the pumps says it doesn't make it so. The gas and Ethanol are mixed at the rack(where truckS fill up for delivery) there is no guarantee its 10%, its cheaper than gas so way not up the limit a wee bit and make some money? Pretty soon you might E15
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Bingo. Ditch all subsidies. Allow energy to compete on the open market. If it is abundant, and can be produced cheap - companies win, and consumers win. I don’t like how government picks sides. One could argue that this will hinder research into potentially new forms of energy. To this end I pose a question for the more knowledgeable; have there ever been inventions/products which have been assisted by government spending ( meaning it was too costly to bring to market initially) which now is a staple in our society? Its 8am and I can’t think of any!
How do you know its 10% ethanol, just because the pumps says it doesn't make it so. The gas and Ethanol are mixed at the rack(where truckS fill up for delivery) there is no guarantee its 10%, its cheaper than gas so way not up the limit a wee bit and make some money? Pretty soon you might E15
I have no idea that its 10%, I just take the word of the gas station selling it. That and I have not heard of the mandated E15 passing nationwide , as of yet, so I am assuming that E10 is as high as they are “allowed’. I wonder if the subsidy driven ethanol scammers are going to get more money from congress this year. Their production is so bloated on expectations, that once gas demand falls ( which it may), than they are going to need another bailout - on our dollar. I really hope that these guys get all of their funding cut. “No fuel for food”
Bingo. Ditch all subsidies. Allow energy to compete on the open market. If it is abundant, and can be produced cheap - companies win, and consumers win. I don’t like how government picks sides. One could argue that this will hinder research into potentially new forms of energy. To this end I pose a question for the more knowledgeable; have there ever been inventions/products which have been assisted by government spending ( meaning it was too costly to bring to market initially) which now is a staple in our society? Its 8am and I can’t think of any!
How do you know its 10% ethanol, just because the pumps says it doesn't make it so. The gas and Ethanol are mixed at the rack(where truckS fill up for delivery) there is no guarantee its 10%, its cheaper than gas so way not up the limit a wee bit and make some money? Pretty soon you might E15
I have no idea that its 10%, I just take the word of the gas station selling it. That and I have not heard of the mandated E15 passing nationwide , as of yet, so I am assuming that E10 is as high as they are “allowed’. I wonder if the subsidy driven ethanol scammers are going to get more money from congress this year. Their production is so bloated on expectations, that once gas demand falls ( which it may), than they are going to need another bailout - on our dollar. I really hope that these guys get all of their funding cut. “No fuel for food”
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Any invention or technology that was born of NASA and the space program comes to mind.
unh_hockey
pain is temporary pride is forever
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Actually I seem to recall having this discussion in a high school class , of all places. We were discussing the merits of government funded projects, and Doppler radar rings a bell. ..see a few cups of coffee and the cobwebs just fall away…
Actually I seem to recall having this discussion in a high school class , of all places. We were discussing the merits of government funded projects, and Doppler radar rings a bell. ..see a few cups of coffee and the cobwebs just fall away…
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
I don't think he said anything about relaxing the environmental/emissions regulations....
unofan
Well-known member
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
Abundant and produced cheap are the keywords he used. That strikes me as a "market always good; gubmint always bad" argument.
If I read too much in to that, then my bad. But I've heard this spiel from other people before, and that's where it always ends up.
I don't think he said anything about relaxing the environmental/emissions regulations....
Abundant and produced cheap are the keywords he used. That strikes me as a "market always good; gubmint always bad" argument.
If I read too much in to that, then my bad. But I've heard this spiel from other people before, and that's where it always ends up.
bigblue_dl
Armed
Re: 5 dollar gas...are we ready?
I was under the impression that he was just suggesting doing away with all subsidies that favor one type of energy over another, so a less efficient/practical technology isn't used simply because it is being propped up by the government. I don't think he is advocating letting energy companies have a free-for-all with no regulations whatsoever. I'm not big on government regulating everything and even I can see that it would be bad idea to do that.
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