2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Is there any law on the books that says you must do business with the unbathed or that muslim caterers must serve pork?

As a person who has been in business for many years the only folks I refuse to business with are ones who do not pay. I've been bitten several times, those folks can go away. Other than that I'll be glad to take your money even I think you're an idiot

That's what I always find amusing about these fights.

I'd bet there are about five businesses out there that would decide they're not going to take a customer's money because the customer is gay, or jewish, or whatever. The legislature is giving businesses a "right" or protection they don't want, won't use, and didn't ask for. And furthermore, if you happen to be gay and you stumble across one of these 5 businesses, who through some miracle have managed to stay open despite questionable business judgment, do you even want to do business with them? If I were gay or african american or some other protected category, the last thing I'd do is give my money to some bigoted clown.

But, let's spend lots of money passing this stupid legislation, and then challenging it in the courts. That's what we do, I guess.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I'll pose the question to you then. Are you okay with a store not serving blacks or Jews just because of the customer's color or religion, and then its the problem of that person to go elsewhere?

If someone is going to be forced to tolerate business from an undesirable group, there's nothing saying they have to like it. Consider it similar to the argument of two waitresses, each of whom give a different level of service, but essentially do the same job. That would still be legal. Let the undesirables choose to go somewhere else, while those desired continue to give rave reviews.

And you're telling me you've never been to a restaurant with horrible service and then decided you're not going back?

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

If someone is going to be forced to tolerate business from an undesirable group, there's nothing saying they have to like it. Consider it similar to the argument of two waitresses, each of whom give a different level of service, but essentially do the same job. That would still be legal. Let the undesirables choose to go somewhere else, while those desired continue to give rave reviews.

And you're telling me you've never been to a restaurant with horrible service and then decided you're not going back?

You're not answering the question. Do you think it should be legal for a business to refuse to serve customers based on their race or religion? Yes or no.

That's what I always find amusing about these fights.

I'd bet there are about five businesses out there that would decide they're not going to take a customer's money because the customer is gay, or jewish, or whatever. The legislature is giving businesses a "right" or protection they don't want, won't use, and didn't ask for. And furthermore, if you happen to be gay and you stumble across one of these 5 businesses, who through some miracle have managed to stay open despite questionable business judgment, do you even want to do business with them? If I were gay or african american or some other protected category, the last thing I'd do is give my money to some bigoted clown.

But, let's spend lots of money passing this stupid legislation, and then challenging it in the courts. That's what we do, I guess.

No offense but this is simplistic, dumb, and dangerous. What happens if you live in smaller community where you're the distinct minority. All 3 restaurants in town are run by like minded people who decide they don't want to serve you. There is not enough of a groundswell of opposition to these businesses because the townspeople like this status quo. Under your opinion expressed here, which you're free to clarify, that All Men Are Created Equal stuff in the Constitution doesn't apply. That's ridiculous. Discrimination is illegal. This was settled 50 years ago and its too bad if some corners of this country, always conservative areas mind you, haven't figured that out yet.

 

[walrus]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

All 3 restaurants in town are run by like minded people who decide they don't want to serve you. There is not enough of a groundswell of opposition to these businesses because the townspeople like this status quo. Under your opinion expressed here, which you're free to clarify, that All Men Are Created Equal stuff in the Constitution doesn't apply. That's ridiculous. Discrimination is illegal. This was settled 50 years ago and its too bad if some corners of this country, always conservative areas mind you, haven't figured that out yet.

I understand what you are saying but 3 restaurants in a small town are competing for the same dollars, I doubt all 3 are turning folks away. I wouldn't want to eat in the one that was especially if it was forced to serve folks it didn't want to. Its a stupid law and if you are in business turning away peoples money, you are an idiot.

 

[unofan]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I'd bet there are about five businesses out there that would decide they're not going to take a customer's money because the customer is gay, or jewish, or whatever.

Yeah, how'd that work out in the pre-Civil Rights era. How stupid were those businesses turning away African-American dollars? There must have only been five of them out there.

There would be way more than that if it were allowed legally, especially in remote, small, rural towns of about 5,000 people.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

You're not answering the question. Do you think it should be legal for a business to refuse to serve customers based on their race or religion? Yes or no.




No offense but this is simplistic, dumb, and dangerous. What happens if you live in smaller community where you're the distinct minority. All 3 restaurants in town are run by like minded people who decide they don't want to serve you. There is not enough of a groundswell of opposition to these businesses because the townspeople like this status quo. Under your opinion expressed here, which you're free to clarify, that All Men Are Created Equal stuff in the Constitution doesn't apply. That's ridiculous. Discrimination is illegal. This was settled 50 years ago and its too bad if some corners of this country, always conservative areas mind you, haven't figured that out yet.

Then I go to a community where I am welcomed. Sometimes, simple answers are good.

BTW, "All Men are Created Equal" is in the Declaration of Independence. Typical left wing mistake.

 

[unofan]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I don't like people who haven't bathed in a week and I refuse to do business with them.

I am a Muslim caterer. Must I serve pork at a Christian wedding on Saturday?

bigotry?

Uncleanliness is not a protected basis either constitutionally (something "into which you are born and out of which you cannot get") or statutorily (things listed by statute). So no.

If Muslims do not serve pork to anyone, then they do not have to serve pork to Christians. If they take all Saturdays off, they can take that specific Saturday off. What they can't do is serve Halal food to Muslim customers but refuse to do so to Jews, Christians, gays, Caucasians, or anyone else who asks for that same menu without a legitimate, nondiscriminatory reason (those items are only seasonal, our supplier went under, etc.).

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

No offense but this is simplistic, dumb, and dangerous. What happens if you live in smaller community where you're the distinct minority. All 3 restaurants in town are run by like minded people who decide they don't want to serve you. There is not enough of a groundswell of opposition to these businesses because the townspeople like this status quo. Under your opinion expressed here, which you're free to clarify, that All Men Are Created Equal stuff in the Constitution doesn't apply. That's ridiculous. Discrimination is illegal. This was settled 50 years ago and its too bad if some corners of this country, always conservative areas mind you, haven't figured that out yet.

Yeah, how'd that work out in the pre-Civil Rights era. How stupid were those businesses turning away African-American dollars? There must have only been five of them out there.

There would be way more than that if it were allowed legally, especially in remote, small, rural towns of about 5,000 people.

Do you guys even read what people post anymore, or is it just knee jerk?

Let me again summarize my points:

1. Businesses in AZ weren't demanding this statute, most likely because you don't stay in business very long if you turn away customers for stupid, bigoted reasons;
2. If I'm a customer, and I know a business doesn't want to do business with me for what I would consider to be a stupid or bigoted reason, I'm not going to do business with them, even if the state says they have to serve me.

Now, I know that it serves some people's interests to argue that we are still in the 1950's and 60's deep south, with the separate lunch counters and drinking fountains, etc... Bigotry still exists in the country, but it's not the blatant, in your face type that this AZ statute proposes to allow. It's much more subtle.

And these phony legislative actions, designed entirely to provoke a fight, don't address that problem in the least.

As a side note, the Minnesota Department of Human Rights keeps a record of accusations of discrimination filed with that agency each year. A report is then made to the legislature. I was curious, so I looked them up. http://mn.gov/mdhr/about/reports.html

In the past 3 years (the only reports I could quickly find), there have been exactly 2 charges of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in the state of Minnesota relating to business transactions. I don't know how many billions of business transactions occurred in the state over that 3 year period, but I don't find 2 charges to be particularily noteworthy.

I suspect the experience in Arizona is the same. But, by all means, let's get all worked up over a law to permit people to do something they have no interest in doing anyway, just so we can have a lawsuit with a result that says we can't do what we weren't doing anyway.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

But, let's spend lots of money passing this stupid legislation, and then challenging it in the courts. That's what we do, I guess.

Anything to keep America divided and distracted.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

If there's two things I've learned when it comes to the loony left (and the GOP for that matter), it's these:

1. They believe the ends justify the means.
2. Persecution sells.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Here we go, some statistics on welfare payouts. Care to guess who the top payers are? http://freepatriot.org/2014/02/26/welfare-payout-statistics-will-make-really-angry/

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Yeah, how'd that work out in the pre-Civil Rights era. How stupid were those businesses turning away African-American dollars? There must have only been five of them out there.

There would be way more than that if it were allowed legally, especially in remote, small, rural towns of about 5,000 people.

Forever Selma? You and the "Revs," solidarity forever.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

That's what I always find amusing about these fights.

I'd bet there are about five businesses out there that would decide they're not going to take a customer's money because the customer is gay, or jewish, or whatever. The legislature is giving businesses a "right" or protection they don't want, won't use, and didn't ask for. And furthermore, if you happen to be gay and you stumble across one of these 5 businesses, who through some miracle have managed to stay open despite questionable business judgment, do you even want to do business with them? If I were gay or african american or some other protected category, the last thing I'd do is give my money to some bigoted clown.

But, let's spend lots of money passing this stupid legislation, and then challenging it in the courts. That's what we do, I guess.

Not to mention the capital investment in Gaydar units. One for the business. Another to lug around to make certain the kid at the Stop n Go isn't gay.

 

[unofan]

Bigotry still exists in the country, but it's not the blatant, in your face type that this AZ statute proposes to allow. It's much more subtle.
...
I suspect the experience in Arizona is the same

To address your second point first, Arizona wouldn't track such things because sexual orientation is not protected in that state.

As to the former, dont you think discrimination is less blatant because of things like civil rights acts? Are you really going to use the effectiveness of the laws as reasons they are no longer needed? The immediate response by certain states once portions of the voting rights act were shot down should dispel you of that logic.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

To address your second point first, Arizona wouldn't track such things because sexual orientation is not protected in that state.

As to the former, dont you think discrimination is less blatant because of things like civil rights acts? Are you really going to use the effectiveness of the laws as reasons they are no longer needed? The immediate response by certain states once portions of the voting rights act were shot down should dispel you of that logic.

If only the right army had won the war we wouldn't have these issues.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

To address your second point first, Arizona wouldn't track such things because sexual orientation is not protected in that state.

As to the former, dont you think discrimination is less blatant because of things like civil rights acts? Are you really going to use the effectiveness of the laws as reasons they are no longer needed? The immediate response by certain states once portions of the voting rights act were shot down should dispel you of that logic.

Sure, but it's against the law in Minnesota to discriminate in the employment setting on the basis of age, sex, race, etc..., yet there were nearly 300 charges in the last 6 months alone. There are still employers who are firing people because they are pregnant, or too old, or have developed a disability.

I'm not saying anti-discrimination laws are a bad idea, or even ineffective. What I have been saying is people are getting all worked up about a statute that purports to authorize discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in the business contract area, something that anyone who actually owns their own business knows is silly. It would be like the AZ legislature passing a law that authorizes businesses to heap big piles of cow dung in the middle of their store. Great. But I'm still not going to do it.

It's all part of the political charade going on in this country. The right knows the law will get the left worked up. The left will sue, to the pleasure of the right. Someone will prevail, and they'll move on to the next b.s. move.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I understand what you are saying but 3 restaurants in a small town are competing for the same dollars, I doubt all 3 are turning folks away. I wouldn't want to eat in the one that was especially if it was forced to serve folks it didn't want to. Its a stupid law and if you are in business turning away peoples money, you are an idiot.

I wonder how many people actually read the bill? I don't think the restaurant example even applies. The bill had a three part test, one of which is that there would need to be proof that being forced to do something "substantially burdens the exercise of the person's religious beliefs.'' If a gay couple comes in to a restaurant and does normal things people do when eating at a restaurant, I don't see how that would substantively burden the exercise of the person's religious beliefs. But, hey, this was never about what the bill actually did or said. As Paul Bender, former dean of the ASU Law School and an often cited source of commentary on legal matters in Arizona, the bill "My summary is, it means almost nothing." But, hey, it's a chance for people to moan and have fits, so nobody wants to miss such a chance, eh?

 

[Rover]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

Then I go to a community where I am welcomed. Sometimes, simple answers are good.

BTW, "All Men are Created Equal" is in the Declaration of Independence. Typical left wing mistake.

So for you ethnic cleansing for example is a good thing? Interesting....

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

I wonder how many people actually read the bill? I don't think the restaurant example even applies. The bill had a three part test, one of which is that there would need to be proof that being forced to do something "substantially burdens the exercise of the person's religious beliefs.'' If a gay couple comes in to a restaurant and does normal things people do when eating at a restaurant, I don't see how that would substantively burden the exercise of the person's religious beliefs. But, hey, this was never about what the bill actually did or said. As Paul Bender, former dean of the ASU Law School and an often cited source of commentary on legal matters in Arizona, the bill "My summary is, it means almost nothing." But, hey, it's a chance for people to moan and have fits, so nobody wants to miss such a chance, eh?

It got Arizona in the news, which I suspect was the plan all along.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2nd Term Part VII: You May Like Your Doctor But You Can't Keep Her

It got Arizona in the news, which I suspect was the plan all along.

Naw. A similar bill had gone through the Legislature last year and nobody gave a hoot.