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2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

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Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Shirtless Guy said:
Yup because there is this huge problem of equality in pay:
http://www.payscale.com/data-packages/gender-wage-gap
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You don't much hear about it these days. But for years Democrats supported the concept of "equivalence" in determining compensation. Equal pay for the same job (factoring in seniority) is really pretty simple. But figuring out equivalence, as between a nurse and a high steel worker is a bit more problematic. All that's needed is a federal law and several divisions of federal employees to make these decisions. Voila, problem solved.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Old Pio said:
You don't much hear about it these days. But for years Democrats supported the concept of "equivalence" in determining compensation. Equal pay for the same job (factoring in seniority) is really pretty simple. But figuring out equivalence, as between a nurse and a high steel worker is a bit more problematic. All that's needed is a federal law and several divisions of federal employees to make these decisions. Voila, problem solved.
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and billions spent in creating more government jobs that we don't need.
 
Shirtless Guy said:
I DON'T CARE! Politicians are scum, that doesn't mean I don't want those scum to support my beliefs? I've never paid anyone to have an abortion nor would I. I'm done with this thread because you're just full of ****. I'm sick and tired of you telling me I shouldn't support a politician because he's scum. Go find me a politician who isn't scum? Please, find ONE. To want to be a politician you pretty much have to have something wrong with you. Obviously every conservative on the planet secretly wants abortions for everyone and only supports ending it because liberals created it...its all just a game. F you. I'm done.
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Oh grow up you big baby. Boo hoo hoo if you try to regurgitate knuckledragger talking points and then get offended when I slam them out of the park. Get used to it because you subscribe to a dying ideology by and large made up of old people.

That's the problem with the righty posters of today. Used to be you could get into a good discussion with cons like Ritt or even Chuck Murray and there'd be a good back and forth. Yeah there were also some insults and the occasional threat of beatdowns and other violent confrontations, but it was all in a days work.

Now we have thin skinned knucks who if you question their Talibanesque social policies or adept handling of the economy the last time they controlled the gubmint, all you get is a freak out followed by personal insults and swears. Its amusing to me as I like to watch your heads explode at the first hint of logic that counteracts your arguments, but I'm not quite sure what you're getting out of it...unless you like being humiliated which I believe might be Opie's issue. :D
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Shirtless Guy said:
Yup, abortion is about a war on women, not a war for children who can't fight for themselves...thats the ticket.
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First of all, from what I understand from doctors, that's really rare. If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.
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I can post more of these if you wish.

Actually, here's my favorite from today.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/wa...masturbating-not-based-in-science-doctors-say

"Watch a sonogram of a 15-week baby, and they have movements that are purposeful," said Burgess, citing his experience as an OB/GYN, during a House Rules Committee hearing on a GOP bill that would ban abortions after 20 weeks. "They stroke their face. If they're a male baby, they may have their hand between their legs. If they feel pleasure, why is it so hard to think that they could feel pain?"
Click to expand...
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

ScoobyDoo said:
I can post more of these if you wish.

Actually, here's my favorite from today.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/wa...masturbating-not-based-in-science-doctors-say
Click to expand...
Does that change the fact that in this country someone who kills a pregnant woman can be charged with two counts of murder yet the woman can choose to end that child's life and face no consequences? Is it a person or not?
http://www.local8now.com/home/misc/...-man-who-killed-pregnant-woman-191284841.html

How is that not hypocritical? Explain that one? How is the woman choosing to end the life ok?

Rover; said:
blah blah blah
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I don't have thin skin, I'm just sick and tired of every response that Rover throws out is just a personal attack on my beliefs. You never talk the issues, you just fling **** and claim that my stance can possibly be reasonable because some of the people who support it are hypocrites. That's not a legit reason to throw up some argument. Hypocrites exist all over the place, the fact that they exist in politics isn't surprising. You are kidding yourself if you think my head is exploding over a "hint of logic" I'm just sick of your bull****.

Tell me how requiring someone to decide whether or not to kill a fetus at 22 weeks is a big deal? They're still letting women choose to kill a fetus? Are you afraid of death by a thousand cuts? We'll get it to 22 weeks this time, then 21, etc? Thats what liberals have been doing to this country for year...taking bigger and bigger chunks out of our freedom. Granted GWB didn't help with that by creating the patriot act but its far more likely that liberals will be taking away freedoms than any republican. BTW, I'm not a republican, I'm a libertarian.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Shirtless Guy said:
I'm done with this thread because you're just full of ****. F you. I'm done.
Click to expand...

This has to be some kind of record. One intervening post and a mere 12 minutes elapse before you're spouting off again in the same thread. At least we know you're trustworthy. :rolleyes:
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Carter said:
This has to be some kind of record. One intervening post and a mere 12 minutes elapse before you're spouting off again in the same thread. At least we know you're trustworthy. :rolleyes:
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Yup because its a message board...I stayed for Old Pio...
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Shirtless Guy said:
Yup because its a message board...I stayed for Old Pio...
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Thanks. Paraphrasing WFB (again) "Liberals will defend to the death your right to disagree with them. But they're always shocked that anyone would."

When asked why Bobby Kennedy had rejected a debate with him, Buckley responded: "Why does bologna reject the grinder?"
 
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Shirtless Guy said:
I don't have thin skin, I'm just sick and tired of every response that Rover throws out is just a personal attack on my beliefs. You never talk the issues, you just fling **** and claim that my stance can possibly be reasonable because some of the people who support it are hypocrites. That's not a legit reason to throw up some argument. Hypocrites exist all over the place, the fact that they exist in politics isn't surprising. You are kidding yourself if you think my head is exploding over a "hint of logic" I'm just sick of your bull****.

Tell me how requiring someone to decide whether or not to kill a fetus at 22 weeks is a big deal? They're still letting women choose to kill a fetus? Are you afraid of death by a thousand cuts? We'll get it to 22 weeks this time, then 21, etc? Thats what liberals have been doing to this country for year...taking bigger and bigger chunks out of our freedom. Granted GWB didn't help with that by creating the patriot act but its far more likely that liberals will be taking away freedoms than any republican. BTW, I'm not a republican, I'm a libertarian.
Click to expand...

Lots to cover here. The beauty of Rover is that I can toss out witty barbs when somebody starts posting knuckledragger speak, or I can engage in a serious discussion. Think of me as one of those coveted two way forwards that every team needs in hockey. But I digress...

1) First and foremost, the decision about reproduction rests foremost and finally with the woman carrying the fetus. In short Shirtless Guy you have no business, right, or authority to impose on total strangers your will on how they should handle their most personal of decisions. For a libertarian, I'm not sure why you don't agree with this. Of course someone can be charged with murder for killing a pregnant woman's child because they didn't give the criminal that right. However, women in that situation have the ultimate authority over what they choose to do up to the point of a reasonable viability. Social conservatives struggle with this limit on their authority quite a bit. Perhaps you all think you know better, or are doing God's will or whatever. Be reminded that nobody has appointed you as an overlord over the rest of us.

This is not to say that you should like that this happens. There's a big difference between liking something and tolerating it. That's the distinction that right wing media types use to try and create a wedge between Americans. Nobody to my knowledge likes abortions. There is an understanding on the left however that these situations happen and the best person to make that decision isn't the govt or total strangers.

2) Why do political hypocrites matter? Because if you think about it, why are Congressional abortion bills only passed when they have no chance of becoming law? Maybe to pander to voters without actually getting anything done? Social conservatives controlled the govt from 2002-2006. They could have banned abortion and set up another SCOTUS decision. Why didn't they when they had the chance? If somebody was selling you an investment that they took a short position on, would you buy it?

The point is this: you seem to want to adjust this policy via politics, which is fine. What I'm curious about though is have you done anything else? Have you volunteered on a crisis hot line? Have you joined a ministry or a secular outreach program such as an adoption advocacy agency to reach out to these women? Or does your involvement with this issue begin and end with voting for anti-choice -presumably Republican although maybe not always -politicians, much like some people satisfy their moral obligations by using voting GOP as a proxy to actually attending church every week.

3) For someone who isn't influenced by talk radio and the like, you once again hit one of the righty buzzword slogans of "liberals are trying take away our freedoms". Even though liberals are trying to grant freedoms to same sex couples for example. But I'll ask, how is having the govt decide for women what they can and can't do with their own bodies an expression of liberatrian/conservative concern for people's freedoms? Isn't that anti-freedom of choice?

So to sum up, all you cons on the board here are educated and presumably successful people. The problem is you are almost to a person all being driven nuts by a propaganda campaign by hucksters who have little actual interest in the issues they use to enrage you. How for example could Rush Limbaugh be good friends with Elton John, a man in a same sex union and who brought a child into this world to be raised in that union? Answer: if he doesn't actually care about the issue. What the hucksters have done is convinced you of a caricature that has nothing to do with Obama/Pelosi/etc personally. Its to get you to believe that everybody who's not voting conservative wants to surrender to Al Quada, allow Sharia law to be imposed in the US, abandon Israel, raise taxes on successful people, pay people not to work, keep the US dependent on foreign oil, outlaw religion, gut the military...does any of this sound familiar? Nobody actually believes in any of these things mind you, but people like yourself get convinced that they do. That's why you pull a nutty when you get disagreed with out here. All I'm asking is that you take a minute to reconsider you views of the people who don't subscribe to modern day conservatism/libertarianism. Their reasons for doing so might not be as treasonous as you currently think.
 
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Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Rover said:
Lots to cover here. The beauty of Rover is that I can toss out witty barbs when somebody starts posting knuckledragger speak, or I can engage in a serious discussion. Think of me as one of those coveted two way forwards that every team needs in hockey. But I digress...

1) First and foremost, the decision about reproduction rests foremost and finally with the woman carrying the fetus. In short Shirtless Guy you have no business, right, or authority to impose on total strangers your will on how they should handle their most personal of decisions. For a libertarian, I'm not sure why you don't agree with this. Of course someone can be charged with murder for killing a pregnant woman's child because they didn't give the criminal that right. However, women in that situation have the ultimate authority over what they choose to do up to the point of a reasonable viability. Social conservatives struggle with this limit on their authority quite a bit. Perhaps you all think you know better, or are doing God's will or whatever. Be reminded that nobody has appointed you as an overlord over the rest of us.

This is not to say that you should like that this happens. There's a big difference between liking something and tolerating it. That's the distinction that right wing media types use to try and create a wedge between Americans. Nobody to my knowledge likes abortions. There is an understanding on the left however that these situations happen and the best person to make that decision isn't the govt or total strangers.

2) Why do political hypocrites matter? Because if you think about it, why are Congressional abortion bills only passed when they have no chance of becoming law? Maybe to pander to voters without actually getting anything done? Social conservatives controlled the govt from 2002-2006. They could have banned abortion and set up another SCOTUS decision. Why didn't they when they had the chance? If somebody was selling you an investment that they took a short position on, would you buy it?

The point is this: you seem to want to adjust this policy via politics, which is fine. What I'm curious about though is have you done anything else? Have you volunteered on a crisis hot line? Have you joined a ministry or a secular outreach program such as an adoption advocacy agency to reach out to these women? Or does your involvement with this issue begin and end with voting for anti-choice -presumably Republican although maybe not always -politicians, much like some people satisfy their moral obligations by using voting GOP as a proxy to actually attending church every week.

3) For someone who isn't influenced by talk radio and the like, you once again hit one of the righty buzzword slogans of "liberals are trying take away our freedoms". Even though liberals are trying to grant freedoms to same sex couples for example. But I'll ask, how is having the govt decide for women what they can and can't do with their own bodies an expression of liberatrian/conservative concern for people's freedoms? Isn't that anti-freedom of choice?

So to sum up, all you cons on the board here are educated and presumably successful people. The problem is you are almost to a person all being driven nuts by a propaganda campaign by hucksters who have little actual interest in the issues they use to enrage you. How for example could Rush Limbaugh be good friends with Elton John, a man in a same sex union and who brought a child into this world to be raised in that union? Answer: if he doesn't actually care about the issue. What the hucksters have done is convinced you of a caricature that has nothing to do with Obama/Pelosi/etc personally. Its to get you to believe that everybody who's not voting conservative wants to surrender to Al Quada, allow Sharia law to be imposed in the US, abandon Israel, raise taxes on successful people, pay people not to work, keep the US dependent on foreign oil, outlaw religion, gut the military...does any of this sound familiar? Nobody actually believes in any of these things mind you, but people like yourself get convinced that they do. That's why you pull a nutty when you get disagreed with out here. All I'm asking is that you take a minute to reconsider you views of the people who don't subscribe to modern day conservatism/libertarianism. Their reasons for doing so might not be as treasonous as you currently think.
Click to expand...
I don't go nutty when someone disagrees with me, I go nutty when you're constantly an *** about disagreeing with me. You are rarely respectful and always accusing conservatives of being knuckledraggers, etc. I have no problems having an honest debate but how often does that actually happen here?

So if the woman was on the way to the abortion clinic when she gets in a car accident and dies can the other driver be charged with two counts? I don't know how you can focus solely on the woman in this situation. Does the fetus not have rights? At what point is it viable? Babies are surviving birth at earlier and earlier times. How come what the Philadelphia abortion doctor did is so evil and we can all agree with that but if you change the situation slightly its suddenly completely tolerated by the left? What if the man wants to have the child? I know he doesn't have to go through the birthing process but why does he have no say? I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything, in the final analysis for me, there are at least 3 people that are directly effected by the decision and legally only one of them has any say. Why is a woman given the choice to kill her child before its born but not after? No one has appointed me as an overlord so why should what I think matter after the child is born either?

Overall, we will likely always have abortion be legal, so the reality is that the latter part of what you said is very important. To this point in my life I have not invested time or energy into volunteering or outreach. I'm still getting my **** together and just got married so I'm rather busy trying to deal with new dynamics in my life. I have invested time in the political process in Minnesota and with how frustrating that was, I probably should just invest that time into volunteering for causes I believe in.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Old Pio said:
Don't do that. Rover's got a technique: always attack, always argue tu quoque, always change the subject, always make it personal. He's sort of an idiot savant in that regard. He's apparently only capable of making a serious argument when the sheriff is closing in on Little Dick. Then he's all "let's discuss this intelligently." It's occasionally amusing but has a very short shelf life. Your best bet is to ignore him. I, for one, would miss your contributions.
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This is exactly why I usually stay away from political threads. Occasionally I'll show up, like now, but don't tend to stay long. It always quickly devolves into attacks or at least cheap shots as we can easily see here. Just isn't worth it because I don't care enough about the issue to bother. Good luck out there.
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Shirtless Guy said:
So if the woman was on the way to the abortion clinic when she gets in a car accident and dies can the other driver be charged with two counts?
Click to expand...

If I'm dying of a heart attack and you shoot me in the head, can you be charged with murder?
 
Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Craig P. said:
If I'm dying of a heart attack and you shoot me in the head, can you be charged with murder?
Click to expand...
The whole debate of a woman's right to choose is that she makes the choice of whether or not the fetus is "alive" and therefore if she makes the choice that the fetus is not alive, how can anyone else make the decision that it is alive after that choice has been made?
 
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