2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

[unofan]

David Vitter isn't the Senator from Arkansas???

Mark sanford just won his seat back less than one month ago, and op is already playing ignorant? Color me shocked.

 

[Rover]

Mark sanford just won his seat back less than one month ago, and op is already playing ignorant? Color me shocked.

Hey, its okay if conservatives do it. Don't you know that by now?

 

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

A few pages ago I decried that debate in the public square has degenerated into foam flecked spittle rages instead of reasoned arguments with facts and humor used to win the day.

It seems that these days in order to prevail in a discission one has to scream louder, personally attack, or otherwise impinge the character of your opponent.

I then remarked that this behaviour has migrated to this board. Some of you agreed with that premise and said you'd try to do better.

If somebody wishes to advance a particular point let them make their case and either support it or refute it using logical arguments. This practice of personal attacks has to stop.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Hey, its okay if conservatives do it. Don't you know that by now?

Lizz Winstead makes one joke on twitter about God targeting conservatives with the tornado and the right goes apoplectic. Alex Jones posits that the tornado was actually a weapon used by the government and not a peep of protest is heard.

Consistent!

 

[Rover]

A few pages ago I decried that debate in the public square has degenerated into foam flecked spittle rages instead of reasoned arguments with facts and humor used to win the day.

It seems that these days in order to prevail in a discission one has to scream louder, personally attack, or otherwise impinge the character of your opponent.

I then remarked that this behaviour has migrated to this board. Some of you agreed with that premise and said you'd try to do better.

If somebody wishes to advance a particular point let them make their case and either support it or refute it using logical arguments. This practice of personal attacks has to stop.

joey, I occasionally post this but will again just in case. I think all you righties are most likely good people with a good deal of intelligence that I'd be happy to meet up with and buy a beer for. Its an internet message board where people can let off steam, joke around, or do whatever else they want. Several posters out here that I know personally are nothing like their board personas. Think of this as like playing a violent video game. Its harmless as long as you don't try to do the same thing in real life.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

A few pages ago I decried that debate in the public square has degenerated into foam flecked spittle rages instead of reasoned arguments with facts and humor used to win the day.

It seems that these days in order to prevail in a discission one has to scream louder, personally attack, or otherwise impinge the character of your opponent.

I then remarked that this behaviour has migrated to this board. Some of you agreed with that premise and said you'd try to do better.

If somebody wishes to advance a particular point let them make their case and either support it or refute it using logical arguments. This practice of personal attacks has to stop.

Perhaps one thing that will help: Encourage the reason with response, ignore the attacks. I know I already do this with a couple of posters here, such as unofan and Rover.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

joey, I occasionally post this but will again just in case. I think all you righties are most likely good people with a good deal of intelligence that I'd be happy to meet up with and buy a beer for. Its an internet message board where people can let off steam, joke around, or do whatever else they want. Several posters out here that I know personally are nothing like their board personas. Think of this as like playing a violent video game. Its harmless as long as you don't try to do the same thing in real life.

It's Joe, not Joey.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Ironically, some of us were easily able to predict, literally YEARS ago, exactly what would become of Obamacare once they tried to implement it. But because those of us voicing these warnings were exclusively conservative by nature, we were deemed "retarded" and "not worth listening to", by the self-proclaimed "glorious progressive elites" who are "the ones we've been waiting for" and yada yada etc.
Now that our warnings have been proven true, all you hear is puzzlement from those same self-described "glorious progressive elites" that are running the thing: "How could this possibly have gone so wrong??? Why didn't anyone warn us???? And what exactly just happened????"
A little humility a long while ago would have saved a lot of people from a lot of pain. But of course that was asking too much.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Ironically, some of us were easily able to predict, literally YEARS ago, exactly what would become of Obamacare once they tried to implement it. But because those of us voicing these warnings were exclusively conservative by nature, we were deemed "retarded" and "not worth listening to", by the self-proclaimed "glorious progressive elites" who are "the ones we've been waiting for" and yada yada etc.
Now that our warnings have been proven true, all you hear is puzzlement from those same self-described "glorious progressive elites" that are running the thing: "How could this possibly have gone so wrong??? Why didn't anyone warn us???? And what exactly just happened????"
A little humility a long while ago would have saved a lot of people from a lot of pain. But of course that was asking too much.

There's a slightly vindictive part of me that just wants to say, "You got yourself into this mess, you get yourselves out." Pretty much the reason why it's less important to work the issue and more important to figure out who's to blame these days, but there is a pleasurable irony to this.

 

[Rover]

Perhaps one thing that will help: Encourage the reason with response, ignore the attacks. I know I already do this with a couple of posters here, such as unofan and Rover.

That's because you're a dumb @ ss.

geezer, not sure if you've started drinking Drano again, but where exactly is Obamacare a disaster? With the shrinking expected expenditures on health care per the CBO? Or is the increased level of people obtaining coverage? Perhaps its the death panels you were all talking about?

Here's some free advice. Sarah Palin is a loon. She gets away with what she does because of her looks. I doubt you look much like her, so its not to your benefit to mimic her idiocy unless you're getting paid to do so.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Ironically, some of us were easily able to predict, literally YEARS ago, exactly what would become of Climate Change while they ignored it. But because those of us voicing these warnings were exclusively liberal by nature, we were deemed "retarded" and "not worth listening to", by the self-proclaimed "dittoheads" and those concerned only with profit and yada yada etc.
Now that our warnings have been proven true, all you hear is puzzlement from those same self-described "dittoheads": "How could this possibly have gone so wrong??? Why didn't anyone warn us???? And what exactly just happened????"
A little humility a long while ago would have saved a lot of people from a lot of pain. But of course that was asking too much.

Exactly.

 

[Priceless]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

geezer, not sure if you've started drinking Drano again, but where exactly is Obamacare a disaster? With the shrinking expected expenditures on health care per the CBO? Or is the increased level of people obtaining coverage? Perhaps its the death panels you were all talking about?

Here's some free advice. Sarah Palin is a loon. She gets away with what she does because of her looks. I doubt you look much like her, so its not to your benefit to mimic her idiocy unless you're getting paid to do so.

If they say it, then it becomes an indisputable fact. Then others on their side of the aisle repeat it as if it was true. It's a great model actually. It's a real shame Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi didn't come up with it first.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

That's because you're a dumb @ ss.

geezer, not sure if you've started drinking Drano again, but where exactly is Obamacare a disaster? With the shrinking expected expenditures on health care per the CBO? Or is the increased level of people obtaining coverage? Perhaps its the death panels you were all talking about?

Here's some free advice. Sarah Palin is a loon. She gets away with what she does because of her looks. I doubt you look much like her, so its not to your benefit to mimic her idiocy unless you're getting paid to do so.

I'll go through this AGAIN... although I may not have posted this on here, only on Facebook...

Because of this law, you have in fact created a product with a price ceiling for a product that has also become inelastic. I use the term inelastic if you consider that a health plan and the associated tax are in effect the same thing, because it is either either or the other. The value of the price ceiling is the tax that is levied on the American person. In order for an insurance company to generally keep customers, it cannot charge more than the tax. Yes, I am well aware that there are suckers out there that will pay more than the tax. We've already beaten that horse to death, so let's say that the insurance companies decide to price at the ceiling. Obviously if the point where supply is equal to demand is above the price ceiling (and eventually it will get there, as is what happens with most of these government-enforced price ceilings, if any of the older posters remember Nixon's gas price freeze at the time of the OPEC embargo), you will start to see shortages in product provided, just like what you see with Medicare and Medicaid. With grandfathered plans that will obviously be demanded by customers and given into by insurance companies in order to keep a customer base, they also have an established ceiling of the amount they were paying at the time the grandfather clause took effect, and the same results will happen. It'll be like gas in the 70's, only it will be health care in the 10's.

History has a funny way of repeating itself, doesn't it?

 

[Rover]

I'll go through this AGAIN... although I may not have posted this on here, only on Facebook...

Because of this law, you have in fact created a product with a price ceiling for a product that has also become inelastic. I use the term inelastic if you consider that a health plan and the associated tax are in effect the same thing, because it is either either or the other. The value of the price ceiling is the tax that is levied on the American person. In order for an insurance company to generally keep customers, it cannot charge more than the tax. Yes, I am well aware that there are suckers out there that will pay more than the tax. We've already beaten that horse to death, so let's say that the insurance companies decide to price at the ceiling. Obviously if the point where supply is equal to demand is above the price ceiling (and eventually it will get there, as is what happens with most of these government-enforced price ceilings, if any of the older posters remember Nixon's gas price freeze at the time of the OPEC embargo), you will start to see shortages in product provided, just like what you see with Medicare and Medicaid. With grandfathered plans that will obviously be demanded by customers and given into by insurance companies in order to keep a customer base, they also have an established ceiling of the amount they were paying at the time the grandfather clause took effect, and the same results will happen. It'll be like gas in the 70's, only it will be health care in the 10's.

History has a funny way of repeating itself, doesn't it?

Flag you are wrong on a fundamental premise which is throwing everything else off.

In your statement, you say that the ceiling applied to the cost of health care coverage is the amount of the tax, except for apparently stupid or lazy people who don't realize they're getting screwed ("suckers" I think you call them).

You need to take down your Facebook posting, because what you've missed the boat on is that having insurance has some value. So, in your view, a $100 tax and $100 insurance policy is the same thing, competely disregarding that you get something from having insurance (coverage if you get ill) while the tax is merely a penalty. Lets say insurance costs $101. In your world, the extra buck makes you choose to not have insurance, which in all due respect is nonsense. The 100 bucks is a sunk cost. You're going to pay it regardless. The question is how much over $100 do you value having coverage? Anybody who values that at a dollar or less is an f'in idiot.

 

[unofan]

Flag you are wrong on a fundamental premise which is throwing everything else off.

In your statement, you say that the ceiling applied to the cost of health care coverage is the amount of the tax, except for apparently stupid or lazy people who don't realize they're getting screwed ("suckers" I think you call them).

You need to take down your Facebook posting, because what you've missed the boat on is that having insurance has some value. So, in your view, a $100 tax and $100 insurance policy is the same thing, competely disregarding that you get something from having insurance (coverage if you get ill) while the tax is merely a penalty. Lets say insurance costs $101. In your world, the extra buck makes you choose to not have insurance, which in all due respect is nonsense. The 100 bucks is a sunk cost. You're going to pay it regardless. The question is how much over $100 do you value having coverage? Anybody who values that at a dollar or less is an f'in idiot.

So all these years when I've had health insurance when the potential tax for not having it was $0 made me a sucker?

Riiiight.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Flag you are wrong on a fundamental premise which is throwing everything else off.

In your statement, you say that the ceiling applied to the cost of health care coverage is the amount of the tax, except for apparently stupid or lazy people who don't realize they're getting screwed ("suckers" I think you call them).

You need to take down your Facebook posting, because what you've missed the boat on is that having insurance has some value. So, in your view, a $100 tax and $100 insurance policy is the same thing, competely disregarding that you get something from having insurance (coverage if you get ill) while the tax is merely a penalty. Lets say insurance costs $101. In your world, the extra buck makes you choose to not have insurance, which in all due respect is nonsense. The 100 bucks is a sunk cost. You're going to pay it regardless. The question is how much over $100 do you value having coverage? Anybody who values that at a dollar or less is an f'in idiot.

Since I seem to remember you using this argument when it came to getting a voter ID, why don't you consider the same costs use to refute that in the decision to get health insurance. Everyone values things differently. Just because they don't put your value on something doesn't make them idiots. I look at stuff from a monetary perspective. I can already get health care without insurance, just go to the ER (and when you live close to smaller villages, there isn't much of a line). So why should I have to pay more than what I am forced to pay by the füh- er government?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

So all these years when I've had health insurance when the potential tax for not having it was $0 made me a sucker?

Riiiight.

From a strictly monetary standpoint, yes. If you decide to put value on that sort of stuff, so be it. I know I've been wasting my money on insurance that I can't remember ever using. The employer forces me to have it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

So all these years when I've had health insurance when the potential tax for not having it was $0 made me a sucker?

Riiiight.

Yep. Flaggy's calling you a moron for having health insurance.

From a strictly monetary standpoint, yes. If you decide to put value on that sort of stuff, so be it. I know I've been wasting my money on insurance that I can't remember ever using. The employer forces me to have it.

Do you have car insurance? Why?
Do you have life insurance? Why?
Do you have homeowners or apartment insurance? Why?

Do you have a clue what insurance actually is? I think not.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

I can already get health care without insurance, just go to the ER (and when you live close to smaller villages, there isn't much of a line). So why should I have to pay more than what I am forced to pay by the füh- er government?

Not trying to get into this since I freely admit I do not understand most of the economics behind it but the whole ER thing is one of the major problems with US healthcare. Uninsured people (or those with bad insurance) rely on ERs for healthcare way too much. ER healthcare is extremely expensive, much more than proper primary care that can alleviate a lot of the visits to the ER. Those that are insured are more likely to keep up with their health and see a primary care physician (or NP or PA) which in the end, should save money longterm.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2nd Term Part 4: Donkeys, Elephants, and Porcupines

Yep. Flaggy's calling you a moron for having health insurance.



Do you have car insurance? Why?
Do you have life insurance? Why?
Do you have homeowners or apartment insurance? Why?

Do you have a clue what insurance actually is? I think not.

Car insurance: State forces me to have it.
Life insurance: Work forces me to have it.
Renters' insurance: Insurance company forced me to get it along with auto.

I know exactly what insurance is. A ponzi scheme.