2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

[trixR4kids]

I'd back if it the inevitable cold equations squashed the insurers in a generation. Those folks are useless blood suckers second only to the finance industry.

Pretty sure that’s not what that bill is trying to do.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Pretty sure that’s not what that bill is trying to do.

I doubt he bothered to read it. Real solutions are boring. Lighting yourself on fire on the town square is so in nowadays.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Pretty sure that’s not what that bill is trying to do.

That's the joke.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I doubt he bothered to read it. Real solutions are boring. Lighting yourself on fire on the town square is so in nowadays.

You looked better in the original French.

<img src="https://i.ytimg.com/vi/G2EARJGkdTM/hqdefault.jpg" >

 

[trixR4kids]

That's the joke.

HomerSimpsongoingbackwardsintohedges.gif

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

You looked better in the original French.

Is the chick playing Marie French? Because those subs are definitely Español, Señor.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Not necessarily true. I invite you to read through this wonky but excellent piece that I posted before about the House bill to basically give everybody single payer except for those on employer sponsored insurance, while giving those people the opportunity to switch if they'd like.

A reasoned, well thought out bill that's paid for. After voting rights, this is the next one I'd like to see passed.

https://acasignups.net/19/02/05/updated-lets-dive-reps-delauro-schakowskys-medicare-america

you want support, cover everyone the same. this gives free to too many people and then suffers the "what about me" stuff.

lose the premiums and pay out of general funds coming from those higher tax brackets. have a nominal $20 co-pay for visits. batter druggies to have reasonable rates (or tax their profits/remove R&D/figure it out) with co-pays there that have a few simple cost structures (10/30/50).

stop saying 'mandatory'. it just IS. you are born with health coverage.

add laws that companies can't pull back the contribution made to employees now. that goes to the workers (healthy raises, which may or may not be taxed and help fund coverage).

that 600% FPL monthly premium for a family of 4 is $1,216 -- which is much more than the 'gold level' contribution mookie makes. which means tons of waste already priced in (medicare is supposed to be 3-4% admin vs 20% private healthcare).

needs to go back to the drawing board.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Republican Party will become “The Party of Healthcare!”</p>— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1110586787808903168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 26, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Heard reported this morning that the Republicans still have no replacement plan. All hands on deck with the Courts and the attempted destruction of Obamacare, but not a single idea on how to replace Obamacare. I suppose this is the same strategy they have with tax cuts and military spending. None of which is small 'c' conservative.

They really want to destroy the country I guess.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

you want support, cover everyone the same. this gives free to too many people and then suffers the "what about me" stuff.

lose the premiums and pay out of general funds coming from those higher tax brackets. have a nominal $20 co-pay for visits. batter druggies to have reasonable rates (or tax their profits/remove R&D/figure it out) with co-pays there that have a few simple cost structures (10/30/50).

stop saying 'mandatory'. it just IS. you are born with health coverage.

add laws that companies can't pull back the contribution made to employees now. that goes to the workers (healthy raises, which may or may not be taxed and help fund coverage).

that 600% FPL monthly premium for a family of 4 is $1,216 -- which is much more than the 'gold level' contribution mookie makes. which means tons of waste already priced in (medicare is supposed to be 3-4% admin vs 20% private healthcare).

needs to go back to the drawing board.

I get what you're saying with the detailed analysis of yours. I would point out two things to further the discussion.

1) I agree that an ideal state would be everyone on Medicare or whatever you'd like to call it. The problem is getting there. If you suddenly tell 150M people that their health insurance that they know is gone now start going on the govt plan I feel they'll revolt and not for logical reasons. People don't like to be dictated to. The alternative to Dems if they sit out subsequent elections is Nazi's, not George HW Bush country club patrician types. We just need to finesse the change over, as annoying at that may be.

2) While it sounds good, I just don't see it as being feasible to pass a law telling companies to give their health care contributions to employees. They will immediately file suit and run to the SCOTUS, where a 5-4 Corporate conservative majority agrees with the rights of shareholders over the rights of workers. I do see it passing legal muster to have those companies send their contributions to the Medicare trust fund for any employees that ditch work insurance for Medicare. Companies will take that deal any day of the week. Even if they're net zero per employee, they no longer have to administer the plan nor deal with employee complaints if they get out of the health coverage business.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I get what you're saying with the detailed analysis of yours. I would point out two things to further the discussion.

1) I agree that an ideal state would be everyone on Medicare or whatever you'd like to call it. The problem is getting there. If you suddenly tell 150M people that their health insurance that they know is gone now start going on the govt plan I feel they'll revolt and not for logical reasons. People don't like to be dictated to. The alternative to Dems if they sit out subsequent elections is Nazi's, not George HW Bush country club patrician types. We just need to finesse the change over, as annoying at that may be.

2) While it sounds good, I just don't see it as being feasible to pass a law telling companies to give their health care contributions to employees. They will immediately file suit and run to the SCOTUS, where a 5-4 Corporate conservative majority agrees with the rights of shareholders over the rights of workers. I do see it passing legal muster to have those companies send their contributions to the Medicare trust fund for any employees that ditch work insurance for Medicare. Companies will take that deal any day of the week. Even if they're net zero per employee, they no longer have to administer the plan nor deal with employee complaints if they get out of the health coverage business.

We won't get nothing passed without Republican help and they have no interest in doing anything. They would not vote for Obamacare, not a single one. They ran against it for 8 years. And now they still have no replacement. Even Paul Krugman cannot figure out what exactly Republicans are trying to do no Health Care.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/...xlaW4bYLlupOD6-790ngFrWGy3w-jFWrpeNtq4rs3tLZM

So you might have expected (after 2018 midterms) Republicans to cut their losses. Maybe Trump could have done what he did with NAFTA: keep Obamacare basically intact, but make a few minor changes, give it a new name – the Yuge Maga Care Awesomeness, or something – and claim that it was totally different and better.

But no.

Most Republican-controlled states are still refusing to expand Medicaid, even though Washington would bear the vast majority of the costs. Utah held a direct referendum on Medicaid expansion, which passed easily – so the will of the voters was clear, even in a very conservative state. Yet GOP legislators are blocking the expansion anyway.

Whatever the reason, however, the fact is that whatever they may claim, today’s Republicans hate the idea of poor and working-class Americans getting the health care they need.

So, Democrats will have to take total control to do anything on Health Care and if they do that will it blow up in their face like Obamacare did? Or will the Republicans finally come around? Or will the American people finally come around?

Those as I see it are the only 3 options. And the first is the most likely.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

I get what you're saying with the detailed analysis of yours. I would point out two things to further the discussion.

1) I agree that an ideal state would be everyone on Medicare or whatever you'd like to call it. The problem is getting there. If you suddenly tell 150M people that their health insurance that they know is gone now start going on the govt plan I feel they'll revolt and not for logical reasons. People don't like to be dictated to. The alternative to Dems if they sit out subsequent elections is Nazi's, not George HW Bush country club patrician types. We just need to finesse the change over, as annoying at that may be.

Republicans are gonna whine and cry communism no matter how much you try to placate both sides. Even under this scenario they would do that. There's literally no point in placating them. On the other side I don't think there are that many people who are going to miss their private insurance, the number of people who would benefit less from a true single payer system like those introduced by Sanders and Jayapal is significantly higher than the ones who would pay more in taxes than they currently pay in premiums/DED/OOP.

2) While it sounds good, I just don't see it as being feasible to pass a law telling companies to give their health care contributions to employees. They will immediately file suit and run to the SCOTUS, where a 5-4 Corporate conservative majority agrees with the rights of shareholders over the rights of workers.

The senate and supreme court are also going to be an issue no matter what bill is introduced.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you."

-Nicholas Klein

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

You guys are missing the point. I don't give a rat's fuk about placating the Nazis. Why in God's name anybody would think that when I've been calling the GOP a treasonous cult for the last 20 years is beyond me, but whatever.

Who I'm worried about is the middle of the road educated voter who's steadily been ditching the GOP and who was instrumental in the Dem takeover of the House last year. If you go radical with a proposal you haven't properly sold and that they don't understand (immediate single payer, for example) the risk you run is that they sit out elections again and return the Nazis to total control. You need not make deals with the GOP. However, you need to make a deal with everybody in the electorate to the left of the GOP. Otherwise you won't win.

I find a recurring problem with the "all or nothing" crowd is a stunning misunderstanding of the opposition. If you think Chump is the worst the GOP has to offer you're wrong. We all thought GWB was the worst President ever. Now Trump is even worse. I need all of you to wrap your minds around the next point: The next GOP President WILL BE WORSE THAN EVEN TRUMP, AND THE ONE AFTER WORSE THAN THAT!!! Chump is a conman at heart with a short attention span. Imagine President Mark Meadows, Jim Jordan, Louis Goehmert, Kobach, Graham, LePage, etc etc. That's where the Republican party is heading. I'm all for a massive change in how the country is governed, but if I have to wait a little longer to bring everybody along as opposed to a feel good 2 year window that leads to total GOP control with a worse psycho than Trump leading it, I'm happy to do so. If that makes me a moderate, so be it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

You guys are missing the point. I don't give a rat's fuk about placating the Nazis. Why in God's name anybody would think that when I've been calling the GOP a treasonous cult for the last 20 years is beyond me, but whatever.

Who I'm worried about is the middle of the road educated voter who's steadily been ditching the GOP and who was instrumental in the Dem takeover of the House last year. If you go radical with a proposal you haven't properly sold and that they don't understand (immediate single payer, for example) the risk you run is that they sit out elections again and return the Nazis to total control. You need not make deals with the GOP. However, you need to make a deal with everybody in the electorate to the left of the GOP. Otherwise you won't win.

I find a recurring problem with the "all or nothing" crowd is a stunning misunderstanding of the opposition. If you think Chump is the worst the GOP has to offer you're wrong. We all thought GWB was the worst President ever. Now Trump is even worse. I need all of you to wrap your minds around the next point: The next GOP President WILL BE WORSE THAN EVEN TRUMP, AND THE ONE AFTER WORSE THAN THAT!!! Chump is a conman at heart with a short attention span. Imagine President Mark Meadows, Jim Jordan, Louis Goehmert, Kobach, Graham, LePage, etc etc. That's where the Republican party is heading. I'm all for a massive change in how the country is governed, but if I have to wait a little longer to bring everybody along as opposed to a feel good 2 year window that leads to total GOP control with a worse psycho than Trump leading it, I'm happy to do so. If that makes me a moderate, so be it.

None of that changes the fact that we have to work with these people or you're going to have to make Republicans a minority party in the White House, House, and Senate to such a degree that you do not have compromises like Obamacare as the only thing you can pass and then get destroyed in the following election.

Yes, I agree with you. But like I have pointed out a thousand times the difference between what Republicans and Democrats have accomplished the last 40 years is massive. 23 trillion dollars, oil companies as rich as the eye can see, and a planet that is so dirty we're all ****ed. Compare that with Dodd Frank and Obamacare.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

None of that changes the fact that we have to work with these people or you're going to have to make Republicans a minority party in the White House, House, and Senate to such a degree that you do not have compromises like Obamacare as the only thing you can pass and then get destroyed in the following election.

Yes, I agree with you. But like I have pointed out a thousand times the difference between what Republicans and Democrats have accomplished the last 40 years is massive. 23 trillion dollars, oil companies as rich as the eye can see, and a planet that is so dirty we're all ****ed. Compare that with Dodd Frank and Obamacare.

Which is why Dems need to pursue policies that obliterate the GOP and put them on the defensive. Single payer for all of its virtues does not do that. An incremental slow bleed out does! For example:

The most vulnerable people on healthcare aren't the oldies who are already retired and on Medicare and who are now free to vote for the knuckledraggers in some weird hope of recreating Mayberry from the Andy Griffith show. The most vulnerable people are those in their 50's and early 60's who once they get laid off are screwed. They struggle to find new employment due to age discrimination but are without health coverage since Medicare kicks in at 65.

The way to completely dick over the GOP is to pass a law, paid specifically by higher taxes on multi millionaires, to extend Medicare coverage to 50+ instead of 65. Drives a giant wedge between the party and a lot of their supporters. An existing program that they can't wait to join out of necessity is coming to them. Republicans have to oppose, of course, because they're a cult. However even Joe Sixpack can figure out who's buttering his toast on this one.

This is very similar to the dominant and winning issue of the 2018 campaign that Dems fell a ss backwards into last year. Now that the ACA is up and running, Republicans inexplicably voted to take away millions of people's healthcare for no discernible reason that they ever articulated. People revolted. Instead of waiting for something lucky to happen again (even though Chump and crew are making the same mistake once again) go on offense with the goal of totally destroying the Republican party as its currently constituted. Don't give it a lifeline by trying to out radicalize them.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Since people throw around "socialism" and "communism" and "Marxism" with all the comprehension and care of a 10 ton safe, here's an excellent interview with Herbert Marcuse from back in, I assume, the 1970s.

This is essentially what I am angling for: a living and breathing political approach which is constantly examining itself, learning from its mistakes, and striving to free us as individual human beings to pursue happiness and personal fulfillment without being coerced for all of our lives by the powerful and dehumanized by our work, our environment, and a culture which is hammered home to maintain the privileges of the very few.

Edit: it was 1977.

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Right, and I think you're vastly overestimating the number of people who really love their not all that affordable private insurance that will leave them bankrupt the first chance it gets by finding some coverage loophole. And underestimating the popularity of single payer as evidenced by the polling.

And yes, the nazis will get worse, I agree. That's why we can't implement some system in which the public option isn't all that great (to the point that it wipes out private insurance by being that much better) and people would rather have ****ty private insurance.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Right, and I think you're vastly overestimating the number of people who really love their not all that affordable private insurance that will leave them bankrupt the first chance it gets by finding some coverage loophole. And underestimating the popularity of single payer as evidenced by the polling.

And yes, the nazis will get worse, I agree. That's why we can't implement some system in which the public option isn't all that great (to the point that it wipes out private insurance by being that much better) and people would rather have ****ty private insurance.

See, its not that they love their insurance. Its that they fear change and resent being told what to do (ditch their own insurance for the govt one). That's the part these ideas HAVE to consider because again PO the average voter and the Nazi's stand the benefit. I'm not saying this is rational. I'm saying it has to be considered especially since there's a lot of nuances in the "single payer" polling that you site. Its either not well understood or means different things to different people who aren't as passionate about it as you are.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Of course.

“Republican Senator Susan Collins says she is "surprised" and "appalled" after President Trump's Justice Department announced it would argue in favor of striking down ObamaCare.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/436061-collins-surprised-and-appalled-by-trump-health-care-move

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers: Who ISN'T Running At This Point?

Of course.

“Republican Senator Susan Collins says she is "surprised" and "appalled" after President Trump's Justice Department announced it would argue in favor of striking down ObamaCare.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/news/436061-collins-surprised-and-appalled-by-trump-health-care-move

Gotta love Maine.