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2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

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Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

ericredaxe said:
And, can’t a government run program just as easily deny a procedure or claim as a private insurance company can?
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this should end in time. no reason if a doctor calls for a procedure for the health of the patient, that a for profit entity decides it isn't necessary. seriously, how did this even become an issue?!?!? :confused:
 
ericredaxe said:
That sounds great.... but how do you know taxes will only go up “a little bit”?

And, can’t a government run program just as easily deny a procedure or claim as a private insurance company can?
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Medicare overhead is 2 percent. Insurance is 15 percent. That's how.
 
RaceBoarder said:
I'm envisioning the problem being with the medical providers actually. Under M4A, they won't be able to play the games with their prices. Example:

- Procedure X
- Person with no insurance gets a bill for $5000. (Hospital Looks to get all $5000. Slight risk they don't see all $5k, but may take time)
- Person has BIG Co. INSURANCE. $5000 bill is submitted. Bill is adjusted to $3200. Insurance pays all $3200 (Lower payout, but guaranteed money)

Under M4A, doesn't it become Medicare offering $2200 for the procedure, take it or leave it? Providers are no longer setting the prices in that sense.
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Person paying cash gets a bill for $5000. Person with insurance gets a bill for $10,000, insurance says they will pay $8000, patient on the hook for the remainder.
 
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

ericredaxe said:
That sounds great.... but how do you know taxes will only go up “a little bit”?

And, can’t a government run program just as easily deny a procedure or claim as a private insurance company can?
Click to expand...

Taxes are going to go up a ton.

And everybody will still save money and be better off except the 1%.

It really is a case of "it's them or us." They just got a windfall, every year, for half a century. Time to step up.
 
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

Kepler said:
Taxes are going to go up a ton.

And everybody will still save money and be better off except the 1%.

It really is a case of "it's them or us." They just got a windfall, every year, for half a century. Time to step up.
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I pay $4,680/yr in premiums for insurance for my family of three with a relatively low deductible (that I can get waived by participating in a wellness program) and reasonable out-of-pocket expenses. My employer pays around $20,000 towards our plan. My company is self-insured and pays Aetna to process claims and another party to administer the program and provide customer support.

I'm okay with my taxes going up -- but I think my and my wife's employers should shoulder the majority of the new tax burden (after all, they're getting off the hook for $20,000 in premium payments)
 
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

Eric red axe must work for an insurance co :)
 
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

BassAle said:
I'm okay with my taxes going up -- but I think my and my wife's employers should shoulder the majority of the new tax burden (after all, they're getting off the hook for $20,000 in premium payments)
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I'm paying for this by taxing the rich.

Companies aren't to be involved anymore. They don't pay for your portion of military or environmental protection costs. But the people who own companies -- and everything -- are going to foot the bill exactly to the extent they own everything. Insofar as aggressive taxation eventually wears down inequality they will no longer be so "burdened" by their excessive wealth.
 
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

BassAle said:
I pay $4,680/yr in premiums for insurance for my family of three with a relatively low deductible (that I can get waived by participating in a wellness program) and reasonable out-of-pocket expenses. My employer pays around $20,000 towards our plan. My company is self-insured and pays Aetna to process claims and another party to administer the program and provide customer support.

I'm okay with my taxes going up -- but I think my and my wife's employers should shoulder the majority of the new tax burden (after all, they're getting off the hook for $20,000 in premium payments)
Click to expand...

Exactly. Its most likely true that people in general would save money on M4A when calculating higher taxes vs having all healthcare costs paid. The problem, once again, is that you can't expect the vast majority of the voting public to either be able to figure that out or take your word for it. Medical bills for those who aren't chronically ill tend to come haphazardly depending on when you need care. Tax withholdings show up as often as you get paid. People are going to notice the tax hit long before they notice, if they notice at all, lower medical bills. That's something advocates need to explain and manage better than they have thus far, even Lizzy Warren who's been stellar otherwise on her policy proposals. "Give me money today and I'll pay you back next year" isn't an arrangement most people are comfortable with however irrational that might be in this case. I'd prefer the taxes fall upon employers and the wealthy instead of the middle class.
 
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

Rover said:
Exactly. Its most likely true that people in general would save money on M4A when calculating higher taxes vs having all healthcare costs paid. The problem, once again, is that you can't expect the vast majority of the voting public to either be able to figure that out or take your word for it. Medical bills for those who aren't chronically ill tend to come haphazardly depending on when you need care.
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While this is true, getting wiped out by medical bills is something that everybody except 20-something immortals worries about. The terror of cataclysm does carry weight. If you were right about psychology nobody would ever buy life insurance.

I acknowledge we have to do a much better job, but I don't think it's impossible -- I think with all but the most dense voter there is a rock of understanding to build on. I don't think Obama needed to compromise, but I also don't think he needed to use sleight of hand. And both decisions hurt him and us.
 
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Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

Kepler said:
While this is true, getting wiped out by medical bills is something that everybody except 20-something immortals worries about. The terror of cataclysm does carry weight. If you were right about psychology nobody would ever buy life insurance.

I acknowledge we have to do a much better job, but I don't think it's impossible -- I think with all but the most dense voter there is a rock of understanding to build on. I don't think Obama needed to compromise, but I also don't think he needed to use sleight of hand. And both decisions hurt him and us.
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Kep, to your first paragraph of course people worry about that. But, the prescription can't be worse than the disease itself in the eyes of the voter. I personally don't trust the electorate enough to sign up for large across the board tax hikes in order to pay for medical bills that may or may not materialize. To your point, people do buy life insurance as everybody knows they're going to die. However, very, very few people buy long term care insurance because they're not expecting to have a lingering death (or just don't want to think about it).

Your second paragraph is typically obtuse when a politician doesn't line up with your viewpoint. Yes, if Joe Lieberman, Ben Nelson, John Tester, etc etc didn't exist, and were all replaced with uber liberals, we may have gotten more robust public healthcare. Unfortunately in reality, not fantasyland, it was not possible to get M4A or anything close by those senators. Whatever short term pain Obama and we suffered the fact is tens of millions of people have gained health insurance or have their existing insurance both cover more procedures and have a out of pocket cap so people aren't buried in medical bills. It astounds me how some Dems want to belittle every accomplishment from a past Dem President. :rolleyes:
 
Re: 2020 Democratic Challengers Vi: The Undiscovered Country

Handyman said:
Is it your contention that anyone was suggesting they would not endorse him because I guarantee no one did.

It's a cute attempt but your straw man doesn't play. What do the polls actually say?
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I think there are a lot of people stunned that Ilhan Omar is endorsing the only Jewish candidate for president. Makes it difficult for them to say she's anti-Semitic.

What straw man do you think I was trying to prop up? It's been a pretty common criticism of Bernie's campaign since at least 2015 that only white males (read: misogynist racists) support him. I know I was called that repeatedly in the 2016 election cycle. Is that the straw man to which you refer? Because that isn't a straw man.
 
ticapnews said:
I think there are a lot of people stunned that Ilhan Omar is endorsing the only Jewish candidate for president. Makes it difficult for them to say she's anti-Semitic.
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No one is stunned.

Anyone with a brain know the anti-Semitic stuff is manufactured outrage
 
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