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2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I cannot sit here and comment either way as I don't know. What I do know is it would have been easier for the college to part ways after the season if they could have.. Obviously they didn't which indicates something of significance had occurred. Was it this incident?? I think it played a major part of it...Can't tell you if it was all of it.
In math and the sciences you cannot prove something by first assuming to be true the very thing that you are trying to prove. That is what you are doing here. Your argument to the question, "Was the firing justified?" is essentially that it had to be justified or it wouldn't have occurred. Sorry, but that is rhetoric, not logic.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I respect what you are saying, Arm... Call me naive but I just don't think they would have gone thru what they are going thru unless it was justified. It would be like needing an oil change and instead replacing the entire engine. Would make no sense.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I respect what you are saying, Arm... Call me naive but I just don't think they would have gone thru what they are going thru unless it was justified. It would be like needing an oil change and instead replacing the entire engine. Would make no sense.

I'm with ARM on this one. The issue I have with your postings, Hawkieguy44, is that there is a lot of innuendo and questioning, without stating facts. To me it smells of fishing for information, hoping someone bites. The problem with that approach is that some people with "agenda's" on either side of the debate, will chime in with opinions rather than facts, and the next thing you know opinions become facts in the minds of some readers and or posters. This is the danger of social media.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I respect what you are saying, Arm... Call me naive but I just don't think they would have gone thru what they are going thru unless it was justified. It would be like needing an oil change and instead replacing the entire engine. Would make no sense.

I'm not sure you can be sure it's justified. Sometimes people make good decisions, sometimes they make bad ones and get defensive about them. This firing seems to have happened very quickly and (by McCloskey's account, for what that's worth) without a thorough process of investigation. Who knows exactly what prompted the decision? Sometimes administrators choose well, sometimes they just panic.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I respect what you are saying, Arm... Call me naive but I just don't think they would have gone thru what they are going thru unless it was justified. It would be like needing an oil change and instead replacing the entire engine. Would make no sense.

Wow I never want you on my jury. Your logic is "If you were arrested you must be guilty, why else have this trail?" Yikes:eek:
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

Wow I never want you on my jury. Your logic is "If you were arrested you must be guilty, why else have this trail?" Yikes:eek:

Now that's spoken like a true Uconn fan as you have experience dealing with coaching violations... Again I ask WHERE IS THE LINE of acceptable reaction by a coach?? Where??
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

Now that's spoken like a true Uconn fan as you have experience dealing with coaching violations... Again I ask WHERE IS THE LINE of acceptable reaction by a coach?? Where??
I know it's NOT grabbing an insubordinate player's jersey.
 
I must say I find Hawkieguy's style in telling us that he/she knows something we don't, and that we should just trust those who withhold information, to be extremely unpleasant.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I must say I find Hawkieguy's style in telling us that he/she knows something we don't, and that we should just trust those who withhold information, to be extremely unpleasant.

While we may disagree, I find most of the posts out here incredibly knowledge based and with great depth. No agenda here nor do I know more than anyone..In fact I have less history than virtually all who post..I Simply have seen the development and see it with neutral glasses..Passion is a great thing.. but can also cloud judgement. I just find it hard to believe a termination would take place mid year without cause. It makes NO sense.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

No agenda here nor do I know more than anyone.
:confused: You could have fooled me.
Why all the postings if you have no agenda or horse in the race ?.
(Observation: You have only posted in this thread, and never in any other threads with your handle)
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

:confused: You could have fooled me.
Why all the postings if you have no agenda or horse in the race ?.
(Observation: You have only posted in this thread, and never in any other threads with your handle)

Well then I'll stop posting and go back to reading... Wishing all the best.
 
Of course we've got people out here like DC who think if they wear their magic UNH hockey replica jersey they are owed an explanation but the reality is we are not.
Just for your information, I don't generally wear a hockey jersey to games, but if / when I do, the 4 years I played hockey for the University of New Hampshire guarantee that my colors are the real thing.
 
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Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

Y'know, I haven't counted yet, but I'm guessing the anonymous newbie has claimed at least a dozen times to be an "outsider" and a "neutral observer" in his 16 or so posts, all to this thread. I don't buy either of those representations, not for a second. Query:

* Why did the poster decide to post to this thread, when the topic of Coach's firing had long ago died down?
* Why did the poster avoid the "UNH - Scarano" thread on the Men's D-1 forum, where it is still a hot topic?

If HG44 isn't BB35 himself, you can almost hear BB35 whispering advice over HG44's shoulder as he posts ...
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I have been following this thread for a while now. Interesting reading to say the least. I'm not affiliated in any way with UNH (except some family attended eons ago) and don't have any facts except what has been reported. Here's what I know from news reports:

1. An incident occurred on the bench on Nov 30. We know that at the least, the coach admits to grabbing her shirt and giving her verbal admonishment.
2. The coach was terminated (I assume for "cause", which usually means he forfeits contractual benefits upon termination).
3. Fast forward about 2 months later, and a female "victim" files a complaint of simple assault with the UNH police department.
4. UNH asks for and receives assist from County and local police authorities. The investigation "is based on that (Nov 30) incident."

Feel free to tell me if I'm missing any facts that we all can agree on.

Now for some speculation and innuendo. What are the possible motives for a criminal investigation?

1. From the player's perspective, it could be simply that she feels termination isn't enough of a punishment, or she feels like the story has to get out so that everyone understands why she complained to UNH. But for financial motive, it is also possible that this could also be the precursor to a civil complaint, i.e. a lawsuit against McCloskey and UNH (UNH can't escape the suit as employer). If Coach is guilty of a misdemeanor, it helps support a civil case by the player, although she would have to show damages.

2. From UNH's perspective, they may have encouraged a criminal complaint. Why? Because a finding of guilt for a misdemeanor would reinforce the termination with cause of McCloskey. The University should be concerned about a wrongful termination suit against them by McCloskey. He said that he grabbed a shirt and admonished the player, and that would likely not support a termination for cause in the eyes of a court or jury (although with a man vs woman, maybe they would?... see below for more on that). If he can show wrongful termination, and on top of that, that he is now unemployable in his field of expertise, he's got a pretty big payday coming. But if it can be shown that a misdemeanor was committed, their decision to terminate with cause is supported. The interesting thing here is that the UNH Police are definitely not an independent policing authority - they are an agency of the University. So it is plausible that there was encouragement by the UNH police department (who may have been encouraged by UNH lawyers) to get the player to file a criminal complaint. I find it interesting that the complaint wasn't filed immediately, but instead was lodged 60 days after the incident - maybe that's bad reporting, but if that's the case, it's unusual. By the way, bringing in Durham and county police agencies to assist/lead allows the investigation itself to ostensibly be unbiased.

3. For McCloskey, well, he probably would prefer no criminal investigation. The investigation further damages his reputation, and I think it is likely if it wasn't true before, it is true now that he is unemployable as a hockey coach. Although, the upside for him is that if a criminal charge isn't filed as a result of the investigation, that he would then have some further support for a wrongful termination suit.

For those who have asked "so when is the line crossed?"... it can be different from industry to industry and even employer to employer. Courts look to "norms" in a particular setting as a guideline to determine "if a line has been crossed". A coach grabbing a jersey and yelling at a player may be considered "reasonable behavior" in college football or hockey. It may not be seen that way in collegiate gymnastics or crew however. We do know that it is clearly unacceptable behavior in most office environments. Interestingly, physical abuse of a female athlete by a male coach may be considered differently than male to male or female to female. In other words, there might be a higher standard of conduct expected of a male coach who uses physicality with a female athlete, because of the perceived physical advantages of men over women (although I think these players could probably "handle themselves" with McCloskey). This male coach/female athlete relationship in a "rough and tough" sport like ice hockey is a relatively new phenomena, so this situation could establish some precedents.

For those who question UNH's handling of the case, you need to be careful. If, for example, the CI and subsequent trial results in a finding that McCloskey punched or pushed the player (not saying that happened, just theoretical), then UNH had absolutely no choice in the matter. UNH also has the sticky situation (mentioned above) of a male coach getting rough with a female athlete. UNH has significant financial exposure here - a lawsuit either from a player if they don't act, or from the coach if they over-acted. So when I say "be careful", it's because UNH was not presented with an easy, clear-cut problem to solve. The administration has a fiduciary responsibility to protect the university, even at the expense of a loyal coach's career. If you are the UNH President, for the financial sake of the institution, you may have made the same, exact decision.

Lots of food for thought. I hope the conversation remains civil.
 
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Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I have been following this thread for a while now. Interesting reading to say the least. I'm not affiliated in any way with UNH (except some family attended eons ago) and don't have any facts except what has been reported. Here's what I know from news reports:

1. An incident occurred on the bench on Nov 30. We know that at the least, the coach admits to grabbing her shirt and giving her verbal admonishment.
2. The coach was terminated (I assume for "cause", which usually means he forfeits contractual benefits upon termination).
3. Fast forward about 2 months later, and a female "victim" files a complaint of simple assault with the UNH police department.
4. UNH asks for and receives assist from County and local police authorities. The investigation "is based on that (Nov 30) incident."

Feel free to tell me if I'm missing any facts that we all can agree on.

Now for some speculation and innuendo. What are the possible motives for a criminal investigation?

1. From the player's perspective, it could be simply that she feels termination isn't enough of a punishment, or she feels like the story has to get out so that everyone understands why she complained to UNH. But for financial motive, it is also possible that this could also be the precursor to a civil complaint, i.e. a lawsuit against McCloskey and UNH (UNH can't escape the suit as employer). If Coach is guilty of a misdemeanor, it helps support a civil case by the player, although she would have to show damages.

2. From UNH's perspective, they may have encouraged a criminal complaint. Why? Because a finding of guilt for a misdemeanor would reinforce the termination with cause of McCloskey. The University should be concerned about a wrongful termination suit against them by McCloskey. He said that he grabbed a shirt and admonished the player, and that would likely not support a termination for cause in the eyes of a court or jury (although with a man vs woman, maybe they would?... see below for more on that). If he can show wrongful termination, and on top of that, that he is now unemployable in his field of expertise, he's got a pretty big payday coming. But if it can be shown that a misdemeanor was committed, their decision to terminate with cause is supported. The interesting thing here is that the UNH Police are definitely not an independent policing authority - they are an agency of the University. So it is plausible that there was encouragement by the UNH police department (who may have been encouraged by UNH lawyers) to get the player to file a criminal complaint. I find it interesting that the complaint wasn't filed immediately, but instead was lodged 60 days after the incident - maybe that's bad reporting, but if that's the case, it's unusual. By the way, bringing in Durham and county police agencies to assist/lead allows the investigation itself to ostensibly be unbiased.

3. For McCloskey, well, he probably would prefer no criminal investigation. The investigation further damages his reputation, and I think it is likely if it wasn't true before, it is true now that he is unemployable as a hockey coach. Although, the upside for him is that if a criminal charge isn't filed as a result of the investigation, that he would then have some further support for a wrongful termination suit.

For those who have asked "so when is the line crossed?"... it can be different from industry to industry and even employer to employer. Courts look to "norms" in a particular setting as a guideline to determine "if a line has been crossed". A coach grabbing a jersey and yelling at a player may be considered "reasonable behavior" in college football or hockey. It may not be seen that way in collegiate gymnastics or crew however. We do know that it is clearly unacceptable behavior in most office environments. Interestingly, physical abuse of a female athlete by a male coach may be considered differently than male to male or female to female. In other words, there might be a higher standard of conduct expected of a male coach who uses physicality with a female athlete, because of the perceived physical advantages of men over women (although I think these players could probably "handle themselves" with McCloskey). This male coach/female athlete relationship in a "rough and tough" sport like ice hockey is a relatively new phenomena, so this situation could establish some precedents.

For those who question UNH's handling of the case, you need to be careful. If, for example, the CI and subsequent trial results in a finding that McCloskey punched or pushed the player (not saying that happened, just theoretical), then UNH had absolutely no choice in the matter. UNH also has the sticky situation (mentioned above) of a male coach getting rough with a female athlete. UNH has significant financial exposure here - a lawsuit either from a player if they don't act, or from the coach if they over-acted. So when I say "be careful", it's because UNH was not presented with an easy, clear-cut problem to solve. The administration has a fiduciary responsibility to protect the university, even at the expense of a loyal coach's career. If you are the UNH President, for the financial sake of the institution, you may have made the same, exact decision.

Lots of food for thought. I hope the conversation remains civil.
Winner!
 
We do know that it is clearly unacceptable behavior in most office environments.
Nice post. I don't think that an office environment is a relevant comparison to a sports environment. For example, it isn't appropriate in an office environment for a boss to forcefully pat a female employee on her shoulder, even as a friendly gesture, but it is normal in hockey for players wearing shoulder pads. Also, a worker who rushed up to a coworker and tackled her in joy would likely be punished, where it happens frequently in goal celebrations. It is just a different environment with different standards of conduct.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

Lots of food for thought. I hope the conversation remains civil.[/QUOTE]

That was an excellent overview. You no doubt have circled this rink a few times before. Thx for some common ground!! It's time to talk hockey.
 
Re: 2014 UNH Wildcats: Ending Strong and Starting Fresh

I agree Puckrush that there is a lot of interesting reading....regarding your 4 statements, I'll assume you know that #4 is accurate....the others seem to be true. Your addressing of the male/female issue Is key though....I think we all agree that it adds special parameters to the "incident"....my problem though is to ask should it? From my decade of working with female athletes, I have found that all they want is to be respected as an athlete! Not worry about their looks, their lives outside of their discipline, nor treated any different than their male counterparts! For the Women of UNH, some would rather have their clothes say UNH hockey, not UNH women's hockey.....for myself, I like my hoodie that shows I support the women's team. So again society has to catch up with what the reality is.....see a female hockey player and think athlete, period! For us old timers, see a ponytail coming out of the helmet, and think of John Glynn, from Trumball Conn., who played at UVM!!
 
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