2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Have you watched women's basketball at the Olympics lately? There isn't much in the way of parity. On a good day, Australia can keep it close when playing the U.S. Canada? France? They may be some of the better programs in the world, but they aren't on the same level. So if we want to indict women's hockey, let's get rid of all of the sports where one or two countries are better than the rest. If the European countries put some effort into it, they could close the gap considerably in hockey. In women's basketball, most of these countries are nowhere compared to all of the infrastructure in place in the U.S.

Multiple Reactions:

1. AMEN!

2. Must Spread.

3. Dominance needn't be eternal. How invincible did USA Men's Hoops appear -- for decades? How invincible did Soviet Hockey appear over the course of multiple gold medals? And yet the Olympic movement stayed the course. In both cases, things got more interesting in the long run. The idea that Women's Hockey can never amount to much in Europe the product of short term focus. And no, not because anyone on this thread is seeking "pity."

4. If the status quo is so very unacceptable, there are alternatives to simply giving up. IIRC, years ago Canada used to send it's National Senior Men's Championship Team to compete in Olympic Men's Hockey. My knowledge of this history is certainly incomplete, but isn't that the story behind the famous Trail (B.C.) Smoke Eaters? If the rest of the world can't deal with North America's Centralized programs just yet, we could send club champions for a period of time while they catch up.

5. Another option would be to impose age caps they way they do in Tennis and Soccer. Now I'm not particularly enthusiastic about this approach, but it might level the playing surface a bit. And it would be preferable to being kicked off the Olympic program.

6. The whole idea of punishing the North American Women for their excellence is offensive.

7. Even if most of the other nations currently have no real chance for a Gold Medal in Women's Hockey, why do we feel compelled to disrespect their participation? Most Olympic events have their "just glad to be here" competitors. The opportunity to connect with the best players in the world is seen as a value unto itself. It's also an opportunity to measure their progress in the sport and perhaps to learn from playing against the best. Frequently these athletes are the subject of human interest stories, and are held up as great examples of Olympic ideals. Why is it that for sports North Americans excel at, we suddenly feel a weird sort of guilt, and characterize the teams we're defeating as victims, rather than as noble participants?

 

[ARM]

If the rest of the world can't deal with North America's Centralized programs just yet, we could send club champions for a period of time while they catch up.

5. Another option would be to impose age caps they way they do in Tennis and Soccer.

I don't want to see either of these. The idea of the Olympics isn't to create equal competition; it is to showcase the best athletes in the world. We did what you suggested above for years in sports like basketball and hockey -- send a bunch of kids just out of college and not yet pro while Europe sent its best professionals who somehow retained "amateur" status. No more. If you want to proclaim yourself as the best in the world, you should have to be the best and beat the best. Are we going to have the Netherlands send 15-year-old speed skaters and Norway send 16-year-old cross-country skiers? No. Every country should send their best.

I'm hoping that having the Olympics in Russia will inspire more Russian girls to play the sport. And if Russia struggles against some opponent at home with the world watching, maybe some of the men that have been involved in the sport for decades could help the women's game in their country a little bit. If they want to claim to have invented the game, which they do, then it would be nice if they were willing to be a little less sexist about it. Canada and the U.S. should be mentoring countries that are fairly new to hockey. Japan, South Korea, China, the Netherlands, Austria -- sure. Why in the world does Russia need to be mentored? Only because it is too apathetic to promote women's hockey on its own. It has plenty of ice and knowledgeable coaches.

 

[Hux]

I don't want to see either of these. The idea of the Olympics isn't to create equal competition; it is to showcase the best athletes in the world. We did what you suggested above for years in sports like basketball and hockey -- send a bunch of kids just out of college and not yet pro while Europe sent its best professionals who somehow retained "amateur" status. No more. If you want to proclaim yourself as the best in the world, you should have to be the best and beat the best. Are we going to have the Netherlands send 15-year-old speed skaters and Norway send 16-year-old cross-country skiers? No. Every country should send their best.

I'm hoping that having the Olympics in Russia will inspire more Russian girls to play the sport. And if Russia struggles against some opponent at home with the world watching, maybe some of the men that have been involved in the sport for decades could help the women's game in their country a little bit. If they want to claim to have invented the game, which they do, then it would be nice if they were willing to be a little less sexist about it. Canada and the U.S. should be mentoring countries that are fairly new to hockey. Japan, South Korea, China, the Netherlands, Austria -- sure. Why in the world does Russia need to be mentored? Only because it is too apathetic to promote women's hockey on its own. It has plenty of ice and knowledgeable coaches.

The field should be expanded and follow the same format...though have the US and Canada have what amounts to a bye and play two less games. Let the rest of the world slug it out amongst themselves with some semblence of parity before moving into round robin with the heavyweights.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

If women's hockey is eliminated the host city will have a building standing empty with empty seats unsold.

I doubt it. If women's hockey were eliminated you could probably get by with just one arena for ice hockey. They might need to extend the men's tourney to the full length of the Games, which I'm sure the NHL would fight, but I really doubt you need both with just the one tourney.

The figure skating already uses an entirely separate venue that has no hockey in it at all.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Dominance needn't be eternal.

No, it needn't. But if the European federations aren't going to put the resources in, then it will be. Those are the villains here, if you really need to find one. If they step up and fund programs on the level that the North Americans do then this can work. If they don't, what they are telling the IOC is that they don't want women's hockey to be an Olympic sport. And the IOC isn't to blame for listening to them; it cannot work as an international sport if only two countries are going to put the effort in.

I do my level best to avoid following basketball so I can't speak to how well it compares. That said, you have a deep pocketed entity that supports women's basketball: the NBA. The NBA has a very positive relationship with the IOC and the IOC isn't going to **** it off by canning women's basketball as an Olympic sport. On the other hand, the NHL has a very fraught relationship with the Olympics, threatening every four years that it isn't going to allow its players to participate. The NHL also has no interest in supporting women's hockey. So there is no one providing protection to women's hockey in the Olympics. That makes an enormous difference. If women's hockey finds a serious patron that changes the situation, but that's really the same thing as saying that if the European federations step up then it will continue.

The whole idea of punishing the North American Women for their excellence is offensive.

This is bull**** and is built upon the idea that athletes are entitled to have their sport in the Olympics. Guess what: there are a LOT of sports out there that are not played at the Olympics and there is nothing special about women's hockey aside from the fact that we are the people that like it. We are not entitled to have the sport we follow in the games. Claiming that anyone is being victimized by a decision to not have it there comes off as incredibly whiny. If it is replaced by something else then there are a bunch of different athletes that get to participate.

Even if most of the other nations currently have no real chance for a Gold Medal in Women's Hockey, why do we feel compelled to disrespect their participation? Most Olympic events have their "just glad to be here" competitors.

Sure, most of the sports in the games have those. What is different here is the ratio. If, out of all of the countries that participate you can find exactly two that are serious enough about a sport to have a full time team, it doesn't belong. Bobsledding wouldn't remain an Olympic sport if three quarters of the countries involved were at the level of the Jamaican team, and that's what we're looking at.

Why is it that for sports North Americans excel at, we suddenly feel a weird sort of guilt, and characterize the teams we're defeating as victims, rather than as noble participants?

And this is what I mean about the whining. It has nothing to do with anyone feeling guilty. It has to do with the IOC being under no obligation to invest the resources in a sport when almost none of its member nations care enough to invest. All of the feel good elements of sport would be present in whatever would replace women's hockey, too, along with an actual commitment from the member nations.

 

[D2D]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Twins Aplenty in U.S.-Switzerland Women’s Hockey Game

http://blogs.wsj.com/dailyfix/2014/...rland-womens-hockey-game/?mod=djemLifeStyle_h

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I doubt it. If women's hockey were eliminated you could probably get by with just one arena for ice hockey. They might need to extend the men's tourney to the full length of the Games, which I'm sure the NHL would fight, but I really doubt you need both with just the one tourney.

The figure skating already uses an entirely separate venue that has no hockey in it at all.

The Short Track Speed Skaters also use an Olympic Size Rink.

Figure Skating, Hockey and Short Track each have their own unique ice type requirements. Ever tried to play a hockey game or practice on ice that had been used for figure skating for several hours ?. Usually bad ice for hockey.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

Even after the 2010 threats from the IOC, I still don't think there's reason to be seriously worried about women's hockey.

It's mainly the North American media that pushes the agenda that Olympic team sports should be cut due to lack of parity, because they hate covering sports with blowouts and have nothing else to write about. I believe the IOC only got so publicly involved in threatening the sport because the bad press for 16-0 games got to be overwhelming. The new format largely fixes that problem.

The IOC will use its to pressure the IIHF for funding to grow the sport globally, but at the end of the day, the Winter Olympics is adding sports/events not subtracting them (like the Summer Olympics) and the Winter Olympics already has considerable gender equity problems. The Nordic Combined is the only men's-only Olympic event and I don't see the IOC ever pushing ice hockey back into the men's-only category. Another consideration is that the women's hockey event fills time before the men's NHL players arrive.

Still, you're going to read a trillion articles saying w.hockey is in danger because softball was cut for "U.S. dominance." These comparisons are all bogus. The differences are (1) as just mentioned, softball is Summer Olympics, which is too large (per the IOC), hockey is Winter Olympics, which is too small, (2) Softball was a separate sport requiring a separate facility, one in particular that London did not want to build in 2012, (3) Softball was viewed as lacking "global appeal" (i.e. no serious European participation), and hockey in general doesn't have that problem. (4) "Dominance" was not an actual reason softball was cut. It's one that the media preferred to invent. It's not in the actual report for why softball was cut. The reasons I just listed for softball being cut are.

I've been going after media myths on twitter since Saturday. So far responses have been 2 or 3 personal attacks (including from Ms. Snow Leopard) and at best one reasonable discussion.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

This is bull**** and is built upon the idea that athletes are entitled to have their sport in the Olympics. Guess what: there are a LOT of sports out there that are not played at the Olympics and there is nothing special about women's hockey aside from the fact that we are the people that like it. We are not entitled to have the sport we follow in the games. Claiming that anyone is being victimized by a decision to not have it there comes off as incredibly whiny. If it is replaced by something else then there are a bunch of different athletes that get to participate.

There are actually a few things that are special about women's hockey besides the fact we like it.

(1) It's already in the Olympics, and Olympic sport cuts are quite rare. There was baseball/softball in 2005, and Polo in 1936, and both were Summer, and I don't know what the last Winter sport cut was but it was before 1936. Now technically when sports are cut, you cut the whole sport, so ending women's hockey would be ending the women's discipline of hockey, not a sport cut. But I still think it'd be unprecedented in IOC history to cut the women's discipline of a sport and keep the men's.

(2) Hockey is an Olympic sport, and the men's event has a 90-year history, and clearly the trend has been to move towards gender equity in offering Olympic events, with Nordic combined being the only holdout, though I understand we'll see women's Nordic Combined in the future.

These forces are much stronger for keeping women's hockey than any myth that the IOC's in the business of cutting sports because some North American journalists get bored covering blowouts.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I don't want to see either of these. The idea of the Olympics isn't to create equal competition; it is to showcase the best athletes in the world. We did what you suggested above for years in sports like basketball and hockey -- send a bunch of kids just out of college and not yet pro while Europe sent its best professionals who somehow retained "amateur" status. No more. If you want to proclaim yourself as the best in the world, you should have to be the best and beat the best. Are we going to have the Netherlands send 15-year-old speed skaters and Norway send 16-year-old cross-country skiers? No. Every country should send their best.

Please don't misunderstand; this is by far my first choice. My two "brainstorm" items are only desirable if the alternative is being dropped from the games.

The problem faced by most Olympic sports is that the general public pays attention only during the Olympic games themselves. Dropping entirely off that radar screen would be a long term problem for the development of the sport. But sure, the "half loaves" are decidedly inferior.

The field should be expanded and follow the same format...though have the US and Canada have what amounts to a bye and play two less games. Let the rest of the world slug it out amongst themselves with some semblence of parity before moving into round robin with the heavyweights.

A smaller change along these lines would be a much better alternative. But will it be enough for the critics?

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

My expectation is the current format will be enough to silence the critics who matter (e.g. the IOC). The NYT will ramble on about snow leopards and accuse the IIHF of covering up the problem, but whatever. Having multiple 16-0 games was the real eyesore here, and now that's gone and there's been some legitimate sharing of the coaching wealth, I am confident the threat to the sport is vastly overstated.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

It's mainly the North American media that pushes the agenda that Olympic team sports should be cut due to lack of parity, because they hate covering sports with blowouts and have nothing else to write about. I believe the IOC only got so publicly involved in threatening the sport because the bad press for 16-0 games got to be overwhelming. The new format largely fixes that problem...

This. And it's really unfortunate that some of our own people feel a need to join the knee jerk reaction.

Responding to some of the criticisms from Eeyore and others:

1. It's clearly correct that there's no entitlement to be in the Olympic games. It is beneficial to Women's Hockey, and those that care about the sport should be defending our place on the program, not undermining it. But sure, if we lose the debate, and the IOC drops the sport, it isn't some sort of violation of natural law. It's simply a political struggle. You marshal your resources, you make your best case, you court votes. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

2. Like you, my perception is the current Winter Olympic program isn't a zero sum game. The inclusion of Women's Hockey isn't keeping a more worthy sport out.

3. Timing is relevant. Maybe "feelings" don't count for much, but I do find it offensive that this debate is being forced on us during the games themselves. It's like attending a wedding, and one of the guests forces everyone to listen to his opinion that the marrying couple is poorly matched. Even if correct, it just isn't the time or place. Agreed, it's the media doing this agenda-setting, as opposed to anyone on the thread.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

My expectation is the current format will be enough to silence the critics who matter (e.g. the IOC). The NYT will ramble on about snow leopards and accuse the IIHF of covering up the problem, but whatever. Having multiple 16-0 games was the real eyesore here, and now that's gone and there's been some legitimate sharing of the coaching wealth, I am confident the threat to the sport is vastly overstated.

Appreciate your insights and obviously hope you're correct.

 

[ARM]

Please don't misunderstand; this is by far my first choice. My two "brainstorm" items are only desirable if the alternative is being dropped from the games.

I know that you have the best interests of the sport at heart. Personally, I'd rather see it dropped. To make an athlete sit at home and watch others proclaim themselves as the best in the world when she was not allowed to participate because she was viewed as too good contradicts the meaning behind the Olympics IMO.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

The Short Track Speed Skaters also use an Olympic Size Rink.

Figure Skating, Hockey and Short Track each have their own unique ice type requirements. Ever tried to play a hockey game or practice on ice that had been used for figure skating for several hours ?. Usually bad ice for hockey.

Based on the broadcast yesterday, the figure skating and short track competitions are being held on the same rink at Sochi.

 

[ManBehindTheCurtain]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

The Short Track Speed Skaters also use an Olympic Size Rink.

Figure Skating, Hockey and Short Track each have their own unique ice type requirements. Ever tried to play a hockey game or practice on ice that had been used for figure skating for several hours ?. Usually bad ice for hockey.

Based on the broadcast yesterday, the figure skating and short track competitions are being held on the same rink at Sochi.

According to Wikipedia, there are seven ice sports facilities at the Olympic Park Coastal Cluster.

Curling and long track speed skating each have a separate arena with ice sheet.

Figure skating and short track speed skating are both held at the Iceberg Skating Palace.

There are TWO ice hockey arenas, one with 7,000 seat and one with 12,000 seats.

Finally, there are two training rinks, one designated for figure skating and one designated for hockey.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I've been going after media myths on twitter since Saturday. So far responses have been 2 or 3 personal attacks (including from Ms. Snow Leopard) and at best one reasonable discussion.

Ah yes...The Perils of wide open social media.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

According to Wikipedia, there are seven ice sports facilities at the Olympic Park Coastal Cluster.

Curling and long track speed skating each have a separate arena with ice sheet.

Figure skating and short track speed skating are both held at the Iceberg Skating Palace.

There are TWO ice hockey arenas, one with 7,000 seat and one with 12,000 seats.

Finally, there are two training rinks, one designated for figure skating and one designated for hockey.

Good info. I suspect that one of the reasons that Short Track and Figure skating can share the same ice facility is because they both benefit from slight softer ice. Hockey is a better game on colder/harder ice. Long track is in a different venue due to the dimensional requirements.

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I know that you have the best interests of the sport at heart. Personally, I'd rather see it dropped. To make an athlete sit at home and watch others proclaim themselves as the best in the world when she was not allowed to participate because she was viewed as too good contradicts the meaning behind the Olympics IMO.

Trying to establish which option is the most evil probably isn't all that useful, so I'll try to keep this brief:

1. I pointed out the age cap option as a conceptual possibility, but have no enthusiasm for it. It would create the problem you identify, so maybe it really would be worse than nothing at all.

2. If you sent the "Senior Women's Champions," the players would earn their trip on the ice, those left home would have had their opportunity to compete. Think of it this way. If a Patty Kaz winner's team doesn't qualify for the Frozen Four, she wasn't left home for being too good. She was left home because her team lost on the ice.

That said, I STRONGLY agree that the ideal situation is for every country to send their best, and for every country to centralize.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2014 Sochi Olympic Games Women's Ice Hockey Tournament

I know that you have the best interests of the sport at heart. Personally, I'd rather see it dropped. To make an athlete sit at home and watch others proclaim themselves as the best in the world when she was not allowed to participate because she was viewed as too good contradicts the meaning behind the Olympics IMO.

Agree with that.

The only sport, that I'm aware off, not sending their best pro's is Men's soccer. I think that is more driven by the fact that that sport has so much exposure and that soccer has things like the European championships, a major event, the same summer as the Olympics. Pro Soccer is an almost year around sport driven by many competitions, national, club league, European club, cup runs etc etc, that drives the Olympics to be a more minor event.