2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bull!!

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

But sit a guy for what could be a horrible accident that is not part of your circuit? If a football player has a car accident that kills a second person on a Saturday night, does the NFL sit the guy? Can they?

Nowhere near an apples-to-apples comparison, as a potentially despondent and guilt-ridden football player isn't driving a giant feat of engineering that is dangerous in the wrong hands. If anything, a football player that's out of it and not all there is more a danger to himself than others. Not sure you can say the same about a race car driver.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Pedestrains are killed by cars. If someone walks out in front of me, am I at fault automatically? Do you really think you would see time? No, what would happen is that the circumstances would be examined, and THEN guilt would be assigned. Just like what should happen here.

When I saw the video, (and I only saw it once on ESPN) I saw a driver trying to avoid the other driver. I could be just as wrong as you seem to think that he tried to hit him. We will find out.

One thing- does everyone realize that the back of the this kind of sprint car is a whole lot wider than the front? It's just as possible that Stewart saw him, thought he was too close, and tried to avoid him. One other thing- particularly on these kinds of sprint cars- they are just as steered with the throttle as the front tires. Even at those speeds.

That is why we all see slightly different things in the video. I honestly don't see the logic that Stewart was trying to "teach a lesson" by dusting him- that makes no sense at all.

In the end, the investigators will take a whole LOT more than a video and a brief morning to sort things out. They will figure out what happened.

What sucks- no matter what they decide, someone will think it's some kind of conspiricy. Are they out to get Stewart? Or out to save NASCAR?

All of this. What reasoning would Stewart have had to be mad at the guy to even want to spray dirt at him?

Also I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Stewart wasn't trying to run the guy over, right? At worst, he was trying to give the guy a scare, but like I said, why? The other guy didn't do anything to make Stewart mad.

 

[MattS]

Possibility, certainly. But that's a tough call to make with just the cell phone video. It's a horrible incident from one of your drivers, sure. But sit a guy for what could be a horrible accident that is not part of your circuit? If a football player has a car accident that kills a second person on a Saturday night, does the NFL sit the guy? Can they?

Sure- if they found out later that it was his fault. But without all of the information, do you add to all of the rash reactions? dunno Again, the impact of such decision is more than the one person...

It's a huge difference between a football player and a race car driver and the potential for them to seriously injure/kill another participant. The chance for a football player to kill another is very small compared to a race car driver.

Absolutely NASCAR could and should have sit Stewart based upon that video. I'm not arguing that Stewart hit the driver on purpose or not. That is irrelevant for my argument. I'm saying that I highly doubt that Stewart or anyone would be mentally stable enough to be driving a race car less than 24 hours later considering potential risks to other drivers.

And the NFL might have trouble sitting a player arbitrarily but NASCAR is a dictatorship that does whatever it pleases.

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

All of this. What reasoning would Stewart have had to be mad at the guy to even want to spray dirt at him?

Also I'm pretty sure we can all agree that Stewart wasn't trying to run the guy over, right? At worst, he was trying to give the guy a scare, but like I said, why? The other guy didn't do anything to make Stewart mad.

Just Ward getting mad at him could have been enough to set him off.

I do agree that even with everything Stewart has done in his career, intentionally hitting someone with a car is a pretty big leap. My personal inexperienced opinion is he tried to spray him or something and misjudged it.

 

[The Rube]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

As to NFL comparison: The Terrel Owens situation. He was not suspended, but he kinda was. And the NFL can (I think) suspend players pending investigation (and if need be, reimburse the paychecks if no harm, no foul). The contracts are all monetarily motivated.

And NASCAR should be able to do the same. They have the race exemption that has been used before, for points purposes.

 

[alfablue]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Nowhere near an apples-to-apples comparison, as a potentially despondent and guilt-ridden football player isn't driving a giant feat of engineering that is dangerous in the wrong hands. If anything, a football player that's out of it and not all there is more a danger to himself than others. Not sure you can say the same about a race car driver.

So you are saying football players don't drive cars? My point is about a sporting star that is in a car accident where someone dies. Or are you assuming that race car drivers have to always look out to not hurt other drivers- like leading with your head in a tackle. I don't know if you've noticed, but football players injure each other at a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher rate than race car drivers to.

Mental state, indeed.

It's a huge difference between a football player and a race car driver and the potential for them to seriously injure/kill another participant. The chance for a football player to kill another is very small compared to a race car driver.

Absolutely NASCAR could and should have sit Stewart based upon that video. I'm not arguing that Stewart hit the driver on purpose or not. That is irrelevant for my argument. I'm saying that I highly doubt that Stewart or anyone would be mentally stable enough to be driving a race car less than 24 hours later considering potential risks to other drivers.

And the NFL might have trouble sitting a player arbitrarily but NASCAR is a dictatorship that does whatever it pleases.

No, it's the same thing- this car accident happened well outside of NASCAR's jurisdiction. Just because it was a racing incident does not mean it's NASCAR's job to suspend a driver based on a single home video any more than if TMZ caught a baseball player who hit a pedestrian and killed them and MLB can't do anything right away.

You are saying that NASCAR should take a knee jerk reaction without much evidence. I don't think they should. Should they look into it, and see if something should be done? Most certainly. But react on limited information? No.

let me put this in a different way- lets assume when Dan Wheldon crashed, the race actually went on. Should the drivers who were involved sit for the rest of that race just because they were involved and were not mentally stable? That's what you are suggesting we do. And we will base that suspension on one view without actually looking into what actually happened.

 

[MattS]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

I don't know if you've noticed, but football players injure each other at a MUCH MUCH MUCH higher rate than race car drivers to.

But I would say that, at least in the NFL, the death rate is MUCH MUCH MUCH less than that of NASCAR.

No, it's the same thing- this car accident happened well outside of NASCAR's jurisdiction. Just because it was a racing incident does not mean it's NASCAR's job to suspend a driver based on a single home video any more than if TMZ caught a baseball player who hit a pedestrian and killed them and MLB can't do anything right away.

You are saying that NASCAR should take a knee jerk reaction without much evidence. I don't think they should. Should they look into it, and see if something should be done? Most certainly. But react on limited information? No.

let me put this in a different way- lets assume when Dan Wheldon crashed, the race actually went on. Should the drivers who were involved sit for the rest of that race just because they were involved and were not mentally stable? That's what you are suggesting we do. And we will base that suspension on one view without actually looking into what actually happened.

I don't care that it is outside NASCAR's jurisdiction as you put it. I don't know why you cannot understand that I am not saying Stewart should be suspended for his actions like I sentencing him as a guilty person in a crime. I am saying I would not let him drive in yesterday's race because I am concern about "where his head would be at". Good grief he just, accidentally or not, killed a person by running him over and throwing him like he was a rag doll. How could anyone who is not a psychopath be in a good mental state? Do you think Stewart did that, said oh well, and got a good night's sleep? If anything I am thinking Stewart is very human with compassionate feelings towards other driver(s).

I am saying that for the safety of the other drivers and Stewart himself, if I was running NASCAR I would not have let him run in yesterday's race. You way off base trying to equate these other sports to racing. Apples - Oranges. I would have thought you would understand the difference. Does a MLB player regularly take risk their life and that of their competitors when they participate in their sport? No. That is the difference. I fail to understand why you don't get that distinction.

Let's day Derek Jeter has accidentally hit and killed someone leaving the ballpark on Saturday night. He very distracted but plays in Sunday afternoon's game. What is the probably worse thing that happens to him and his fellow competitors? He goes 0-4 with 2 errors? Now what what could happen to Stewart or his competitors? He gets in a wreck and potentially hurts (or worse) himself or another racer driver. That is the difference.

The Wheldon, or for example if the Dale Sr. accidents came earlier in that race, are different for me because those came during the regular, normal, course of events of a race. Hitting someone outside of the car is completely different in my mind. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or not, that was not part of racing and I believe that it would affect someone to a point that I would be concerned about their welfare and that of the other drivers during Sunday's race. I would have the same attitude if for example, on Saturday night Jimmy Johnson has shot someone accidentally. For me safety comes first in racing. It's obvious to me that for you, some type of sense of due process is more important.

 

[MattS]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

And to get this thread back toward real open wheel racing news......I read this morning that Rossi is in talks with Haas about driving for him. Could be we are getting closer to having another American back in F1. Hopefully if this does happen that Rossi does better than the last one.

 

[alfablue]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

I am saying that for the safety of the other drivers and Stewart himself, if I was running NASCAR I would not have let him run in yesterday's race. You way off base trying to equate these other sports to racing. Apples - Oranges. I would have thought you would understand the difference. Does a MLB player regularly take risk their life and that of their competitors when they participate in their sport? No. That is the difference. I fail to understand why you don't get that distinction.

No, that's Tony's job to decide that. Which he did.

So we will agree to disagree. Racing is dangerous, sure. But to think that Football injuries don't cause death a whole lot sooner is missing a lot, too. We hear of football players dying early all the time, and suffering all the time- all related to injuries that are caused by other players. Just because a racer dies very quickly doesn't make it more or less dead early.

Who was the player who shot the puck into the stands in Columbus that killed the kid. Did the NHL suspend him the next day? I don't recall that happening.

Yes, I think due process is important. And I also think drivers can make their own judgement whether they are fit or not.

In this case, NASCAR is getting flak for not doing something they didn't need to do. what's up with that?

We are arguing over some hypothetical situation. And I think we will just agree to disagree over this situatrion that didn't even happen. Didn't need to. Tony and his team solved the problem for NASCAR.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Okay, so after looking at the video again, I can be convinced that there was nothing Stewart could do to avoid Ward. It was towards the tail end of a curve on a loose track, and Ward was standing in the middle of the road like an idiot. And quite frankly, you don't see enough of Stewart's car to know what he was doing for the moments before impact.

That said, if you could prove something as innocuous as "Stewart tried to spray him", that's more than enough reason for there to be some sort of consequence for Stewart (legally, or through the various racing circuits). And Stewart's history of letting his temper get the best of him certainly isn't doing him any favors.

No, that's Tony's job to decide that. Which he did.

So we will agree to disagree. Racing is dangerous, sure. But to think that Football injuries don't cause death a whole lot sooner is missing a lot, too. We hear of football players dying early all the time, and suffering all the time- all related to injuries that are caused by other players. Just because a racer dies very quickly doesn't make it more or less dead early.

Who was the player who shot the puck into the stands in Columbus that killed the kid. Did the NHL suspend him the next day? I don't recall that happening.

I don't know how much more clear MattS could've been that that's not the kind of thing he's talking about. There's an inarguable difference between driving a supercar and playing football/hockey/whatever and the distinct types of dangers associated with them.

Put it another way: the dangers in auto racing don't usually result in brain degeneration due to repeat trauma... for a racer to die young, usually that first trauma is more than enough.

Yes, I think due process is important. And I also think drivers can make their own judgement whether they are fit or not.

In this case, NASCAR is getting flak for not doing something they didn't need to do. what's up with that?

We are arguing over some hypothetical situation. And I think we will just agree to disagree over this situatrion that didn't even happen. Didn't need to. Tony and his team solved the problem for NASCAR.

Given the situation (drivers attempting to police themselves resulting in one of them getting killed*), I don't know that self-policing is the best policy for NASCAR.

* I get that it happened while these guys were racing for a different circuit, but whatever.

 

[alfablue]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

I don't know how much more clear MattS could've been that that's not the kind of thing he's talking about. There's an inarguable difference between driving a supercar and playing football/hockey/whatever and the distinct types of dangers associated with them.

Put it another way: the dangers in auto racing don't usually result in brain degeneration due to repeat trauma... for a racer to die young, usually that first trauma is more than enough.

Trama is trama, early death is early death. How is making it happen suddenly vs. a long and painful process due to the sport you are in being different is beyond me.

FWIW, self policing has worked. Forgive me for possibly being wrong, but I could have sworn that Tony did NOT race in the Cup race yesterday. Worked pretty well. This isn't about letting a driver get out of the car and throw his helmet....

From what I can see, it seems as people think NASCAR should have stepped in and not had him race even AFTER he said he would not race. What point would that serve? Do something for the sake of doing something?

Anyway, if you want to think that, ok, as I don't see myself convincing you anymore than you are going to convince me. So we can agree to disagree on this point.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Looking at the video a bunch of times, and I'm no expert, just an observer, it seems that Ward got out of his vehicle* first went after the purple "45" car gesturing and pointing (0:32 and 0:33 marks in the video I saw), and in the process walked right into the line** of the "14" car.

*Never leave the safety cage when the car is on the track unless the car is on fire.
**The 45 was in a lower line on the track than the 14. Was the 14 screened until there was no "out" for him?

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

I understand that, but lets be honest, that's NEVER stopped a lawsuit before.

NASCAR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, SO THEY CAN NOT BE SUED!!!!!!!!!

Good heavens. I love how everybody comes out of the woodwork when something like this happens and think they are suddenly experts of racing. And of course, these so called "experts" just know that NASCAR is racing and if anything happens in racing, it must be NASCAR.

I hate to break it to you, but NASCAR, no matter how popular it is, is just one small segment of the huge sport that auto racing is. And it's nothing on the worldwide scene. Heck, more people in Finland watch Formula 1 than NASCAR ever gets for TV ratings.

It would be as if a dual athlete did something stupid in the NFL, and people say, "Oh my, MLB is going to get sued." NASCAR has nothing to do with what happened in Canandaigua.

Now, as for Tony Stewart himself getting sued, no doubt that will happen. And he will settle it faster than they can file it to make sure nothing comes out in a public court.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

No, that's Tony's job to decide that. Which he did.

I heard (whether true or not...) that Tony was going to race. It was his PR people who stopped him.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

All of this. What reasoning would Stewart have had to be mad at the guy to even want to spray dirt at him?

It's typical in dirt track racing during a confrontation like this for a driver to "spray" the other driver as a sort of, "take this you punk." Similar attitude to when someone on a hockey bench squirts an opposing player on the ice with a water bottle because of some altercation.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

And to get this thread back toward real open wheel racing news......

Good luck with that! LOL

I read this morning that Rossi is in talks with Haas about driving for him. Could be we are getting closer to having another American back in F1. Hopefully if this does happen that Rossi does better than the last one.

No surprise. Let's see if something comes of it.

Though to be honest, I don't see Rossi doing much in F1. It's not like he's been wowing anyone in Formula Renault or GP2.

 

[alfablue]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Though to be honest, I don't see Rossi doing much in F1. It's not like he's been wowing anyone in Formula Renault or GP2.

And to get this thread back toward real open wheel racing news......I read this morning that Rossi is in talks with Haas about driving for him. Could be we are getting closer to having another American back in F1. Hopefully if this does happen that Rossi does better than the last one.

At least Gene would get some interest in the US with a US car and US driver. Most of us don't expect anything for a couple of seasons.

on the other hand, it would be great if Rossi was one of those guys who ordinary in the lower series, and brilliant in F1.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

NASCAR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS, SO THEY CAN NOT BE SUED!!!!!!!!!

Good heavens. I love how everybody comes out of the woodwork when something like this happens and think they are suddenly experts of racing. And of course, these so called "experts" just know that NASCAR is racing and if anything happens in racing, it must be NASCAR.

I hate to break it to you, but NASCAR, no matter how popular it is, is just one small segment of the huge sport that auto racing is. And it's nothing on the worldwide scene. Heck, more people in Finland watch Formula 1 than NASCAR ever gets for TV ratings.

It would be as if a dual athlete did something stupid in the NFL, and people say, "Oh my, MLB is going to get sued." NASCAR has nothing to do with what happened in Canandaigua.

Now, as for Tony Stewart himself getting sued, no doubt that will happen. And he will settle it faster than they can file it to make sure nothing comes out in a public court.

Woosh.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

I do think that Stewart is in for a world of hurt. Civil suits are sure to come and I wouldn't be surprised about criminal suit either. And for sure he will lose some sponsorship(s). Even in NASCAR sponsorships are hard to keep (ask Dale Jr.) and I can see at least one of Stewart's leaving due to this.

Tony Stewart is a corporation onto himself these days.

He owns a NASCAR team with three drivers (including himself and Danica Patrick).

He owns a World of Outlaws team with four drivers (including defending champion, Donny Schatz, and the King of Sprints, Steve Kinser).

I believe he owns or has pieces of a team in USAC sprints.

He owns Eldora Speedway, one of the biggest and most historic (and lucrative) dirt tracks in the country.

Unless he actually goes to jail, I don't see him being in a world of hurt. Fallout costing him some serious money? Sure, that's likely. But, overall, he will survive from a business perspective.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

Re: 2014 Open Wheel Racing - if it's white smoke, it's not a good sign & that's no bu

At least Gene would get some interest in the US with a US car and US driver. Most of us don't expect anything for a couple of seasons.

on the other hand, it would be great if Rossi was one of those guys who ordinary in the lower series, and brilliant in F1.

No doubt it will get a lot of American fans, including myself, excited. And I'll be rooting for Rossi and hoping for just what you say!