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2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

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Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
I think that's a great hire for the Vikings. Turner has shown that he's not a very good head coach, but he's a great position/offensive coordinator. He got his start in the league as a wide receivers coach for the Rams (remember Henry Ellard and Flipper Anderson?), and I think could do wonders with turning Patterson into a star.

I think its setting up for Minnesota to keep Cassel at QB and draft a QB in the 1st/2nd round this year. I think Cassel showed some promise and could be a legitimate starting QB (read: average, not Payton Manning) next season. If Zimmer can get the defense turned around to where they aren't allowing 30 points/game (worst in the NFL), the offense should be able to produce 27 points/game (they averaged just over 24 this season).

A lot of ifs, but I could see Minnesota being a big factor in the division.
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I'm clearly in the minority but I don't think Ponder is any worse than Alex Smith was initially. If I were Zimmer and Norv I'd quickly figure out if he can run their system. Cassel probably can because he has proven he can learn and do a decent job in most systems.

Before I'd cast Ponder off I'd ask if the team would be a lot better with 1 new QB or if they should keep Cassel and Ponder and draft linemen, LB's, DB's etc. Making the playoffs in the NFC is going to mean winning the division, the 49'ers, Cards or Saints will be tough to beat out for one of the 2 WC spots. Nick Foles did pretty well for a guy with a new coach and system, Smith is another, Rivers did better with a new coach.

If the Vikes think another new QB is the only road to winning the division then that is what they should do...but if they think Ponder can make NFL level decisions then they should be cautious about assuming the next rookie will take them to the playoffs in 2-3 years.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

pirate said:
I'm clearly in the minority but I don't think Ponder is any worse than Alex Smith was initially. If I were Zimmer and Norv I'd quickly figure out if he can run their system. Cassel probably can because he has proven he can learn and do a decent job in most systems.

Before I'd cast Ponder off I'd ask if the team would be a lot better with 1 new QB or if they should keep Cassel and Ponder and draft linemen, LB's, DB's etc. Making the playoffs in the NFC is going to mean winning the division, the 49'ers, Cards or Saints will be tough to beat out for one of the 2 WC spots. Nick Foles did pretty well for a guy with a new coach and system, Smith is another, Rivers did better with a new coach.

If the Vikes think another new QB is the only road to winning the division then that is what they should do...but if they think Ponder can make NFL level decisions then they should be cautious about assuming the next rookie will take them to the playoffs in 2-3 years.
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I actually tend to agree with you on Ponder. Ponder's numbers are quite similar to Drew Brees' numbers his first three years in the league. That being said, I don't know if the Vikings believe in Ponder. If I was running the team, I would keep both Ponder and Cassel (it wouldn't cost that much) and draft one of the "lesser" QBs in the 2nd or 3rd round and groom that QB to take over in 2-3 years (if necessary, or use as trade bait if Ponder/Cassel work out). I believe Ponder has 1 more year on his rookie contract, so I'd give him 1 more year (Brees' breakout year was his 4th season) to see what happens, and then let him go if it doesn't work out.

FWIW, First Three Seasons:

Drew Brees:
28 Games Played, 27 Starts (10-17 record)
29 TDs - 31 INTs
5,613 Yards Passing (200.46 yards/game)
59.4% Completion Rate
10.4 Yards/Completion
6.2 Yards/Attempt
Sacked 47 times - Ran for 232 yards and 1 TD
Low 70s QB Rating

Christian Ponder:
36 Games Played, 35 Starts (14-20-1 record)
38 TDs - 34 INTs
6436 Yards Passing (178.8 Yards/Game)
60.2% Completion Rate
10.6 Yards/Completion
6.4 Yards/Attempt
Sacked 89 Times - Ran for 623 Yards and 6 TDs
High 70s QB Rating
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

Fighting Sioux 23 said:
I actually tend to agree with you on Ponder. Ponder's numbers are quite similar to Drew Brees' numbers his first three years in the league. That being said, I don't know if the Vikings believe in Ponder. If I was running the team, I would keep both Ponder and Cassel (it wouldn't cost that much) and draft one of the "lesser" QBs in the 2nd or 3rd round and groom that QB to take over in 2-3 years (if necessary, or use as trade bait if Ponder/Cassel work out). I believe Ponder has 1 more year on his rookie contract, so I'd give him 1 more year (Brees' breakout year was his 4th season) to see what happens, and then let him go if it doesn't work out.

FWIW, First Three Seasons:

Drew Brees:
28 Games Played, 27 Starts (10-17 record)
29 TDs - 31 INTs
5,613 Yards Passing (200.46 yards/game)
59.4% Completion Rate
10.4 Yards/Completion
6.2 Yards/Attempt
Sacked 47 times - Ran for 232 yards and 1 TD
Low 70s QB Rating

Christian Ponder:
36 Games Played, 35 Starts (14-20-1 record)
38 TDs - 34 INTs
6436 Yards Passing (178.8 Yards/Game)
60.2% Completion Rate
10.6 Yards/Completion
6.4 Yards/Attempt
Sacked 89 Times - Ran for 623 Yards and 6 TDs
High 70s QB Rating
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I think you make good points, but the one thing that is said on local sports radio around here, that I also agree with, is that Ponder doesn't pass the "eye test". When you watch him play, he doesn't look like he has "it". Obviously this is very subjective, and cannot be measured with stats, so who knows what it really means, and how much stock they should put into it.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

bigblue_dl said:
I think you make good points, but the one thing that is said on local sports radio around here, that I also agree with, is that Ponder doesn't pass the "eye test". When you watch him play, he doesn't look like he has "it". Obviously this is very subjective, and cannot be measured with stats, so who knows what it really means, and how much stock they should put into it.
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That's understandable. However, I think people are being too critical of Ponder. Remember, Brees lost his starting job to Doug Flutie in his third season. He didn't pass the eye test. If not for the Chargers getting Philip Rivers after Brees' third season, ditching Doug Flutie, and letting Brees start the 2004 season to essentially keep the seat warm for Rivers, Brees perhaps never gets his real chance to shine. Today, it's widely considered that Brees will be a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame.

I guess my point is that I don't think QBs should really be judged to be busts until after 4-5 years in the league. When a team can keep a guy in Ponder's situation around for basically nothing, they should.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

Of course for every Drew Brees, there's a ton of quarterbacks who were marginal after the first few seasons and never got noticeably better. But, you're right that QB is a position that's tougher to evaluate than most and players can blossom later in their career. Ponder doesn't seem to have "it" at this point, but there's simply no way of knowing if he could take an upturn in a year or two or three. And it's a big decision whether to bank on that or cut bait and head a different direction.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

Bob Gray said:
Of course for every Drew Brees, there's a ton of quarterbacks who were marginal after the first few seasons and never got noticeably better. But, you're right that QB is a position that's tougher to evaluate than most and players can blossom later in their career. Ponder doesn't seem to have "it" at this point, but there's simply no way of knowing if he could take an upturn in a year or two or three. And it's a big decision whether to bank on that or cut bait and head a different direction.
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Keep in mind that its a relatively new phenomenon where teams expect rookie QBs to start and be good. Even Joe Montana got a couple seasons to cut his teeth. I'd be curious to see how many QBs there are that played 4 full seasons and then got noticeably better.

Again, my point is that given that Ponder is still under his rookie contract (will make about 1.75m), and he has only played 3 seasons, there is little risk in drafting a QB and still have Ponder be the starter for the 2014 season. If Ponder continues to falter (and I wouldn't say that he faltered this year...the Vikings did average about 27 points/game when Ponder started...not too shabby), then you have your rookie QB to try to build around. Given the extremely low risk and the potential reward, to me it is a no-brainer to forge ahead with Ponder (I would keep Cassel as the backup, and the drafted rookie could be the third string to begin with).

The Hall of Fame is littered with QBs that didn't have "it" at this point in their careers. While I'm not trying to argue that Ponder is going to the Hall of Fame anytime soon, there is no need to rush to judgment on a young QB when there is so little to lose. Unfortunately, it does not appear that the Vikings are going to go down that road.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

Tom Brady carries a chip on his shoulder for being selected so low (fine Tom, whatever motivates you is fine with me) but it's really the best thing that ever happened to him. He came in as a low draft choice on a team with an established QB, observed for a couple? of years, learned the pro game, and when his opportunity came, seized it. Not clear at all to me what would have happened if he had been drafted by a team with a QB need and/or been expected to be productive immediately.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

CLS said:
Tom Brady carries a chip on his shoulder for being selected so low (fine Tom, whatever motivates you is fine with me) but it's really the best thing that ever happened to him. He came in as a low draft choice on a team with an established QB, observed for a couple? of years, learned the pro game, and when his opportunity came, seized it. Not clear at all to me what would have happened if he had been drafted by a team with a QB need and/or been expected to be productive immediately.
Click to expand...
I think that was the original plan with Ponder...but, McNabb was horrible.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

CLS said:
Tom Brady carries a chip on his shoulder for being selected so low (fine Tom, whatever motivates you is fine with me) but it's really the best thing that ever happened to him. He came in as a low draft choice on a team with an established QB, observed for a couple? of years, learned the pro game, and when his opportunity came, seized it. Not clear at all to me what would have happened if he had been drafted by a team with a QB need and/or been expected to be productive immediately.
Click to expand...
Brady didn't observe for a couple of years.He replaced Bledsoe 2 or 3 games into his second season and took them to the Super Bowl.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

groovemaster said:
Brady didn't observe for a couple of years.He replaced Bledsoe 2 or 3 games into his second season and took them to the Super Bowl.
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Yeah, but he at least had that year to learn the system without the expectations of becoming the starter anytime soon. Then, well, when he got tossed out into the deep end, he managed to swim good enough that they shipped Bledsoe out of town.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

groovemaster said:
Brady didn't observe for a couple of years.He replaced Bledsoe 2 or 3 games into his second season and took them to the Super Bowl.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the correction. Didn't remember whether it was his second or third year, hence the ? by "couple".
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

groovemaster said:
Brady didn't observe for a couple of years.He replaced Bledsoe 2 or 3 games into his second season and took them to the Super Bowl.
Click to expand...
Brady rode along to the Super Bowl with a terrific defense.

Tom Brady is an absolutely fabulous quarterback. But that first year about the only thing he was asked to do was go out there and not lose the game for the Pats.

I don't think the Pats gave up more than 17 points in a game for about the last half of the season. Brady didn't throw that many touchdowns, and usually had about 150-200 yds passing. IIRC he didn't pass for much over 100 yds in the Super Bowl, something that has to be close to a record for the winning quarterback.
 
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Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

Bob Gray said:
Of course for every Drew Brees, there's a ton of quarterbacks who were marginal after the first few seasons and never got noticeably better. But, you're right that QB is a position that's tougher to evaluate than most and players can blossom later in their career. Ponder doesn't seem to have "it" at this point, but there's simply no way of knowing if he could take an upturn in a year or two or three. And it's a big decision whether to bank on that or cut bait and head a different direction.
Click to expand...

Not that MIT has the best QB in the country but Ponder is supposedly smart (which seems to be a common trait among the best QB's) and if he was completely incapable of reading defenses you'd think they'd clearly know that. So, if he is intelligent, relatively mobile and has a good release motion you'd think he can play at at least a backup level.

If one were to agree that Chip Kelly's offense makes it easier for a QB to look good then there are likely offenses that do the opposite. Whether that is too many reads, too few reads, too little confusion created for the defense or too predictable formation/playcall combinations there could be reasons why even a smart QB with a quick release could look like he doesn't get "it". The other Minn QB, Cassell, seems to demonstrate that the system made him look pretty good at NE.

It appears Brady makes receivers look better, but they have to run the right route and be there at the right time. I have no idea if the Minn recievers coach is a good one or if the receivers are precise or just good athletes. Saw an article on Golden Tate in which it was agreed he was a "run down and catch it" guy early and has finally learned he needs to run precise routes and be exactly where he needs to be at exactly the right time. So much of the passing game is timing, Brady wasn't suddenly a worse QB this year when his young receivers ran onto the field.

So, Ponder may or may not be capable, but if I were Minn. I'd be careful about assuming a new QB is much better and that difference translates into wins.
 
SJHovey said:
Brady rode along to the Super Bowl with a terrific defense.

Tom Brady is an absolutely fabulous quarterback. But that first year about the only thing he was asked to do was go out there and not lose the game for the Pats.

I don't think the Pats gave up more than 17 points in a game for about the last half of the season. Brady didn't throw that many touchdowns, and usually had about 150-200 yds passing. IIRC he didn't pass for much over 100 yds in the Super Bowl, something that has to be close to a record for the winning quarterback.
Click to expand...

I think Griese threw the ball only 7 times vs. Redskins in the Dolphins SB win.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

pirate said:
Not that MIT has the best QB in the country but Ponder is supposedly smart (which seems to be a common trait among the best QB's) and if he was completely incapable of reading defenses you'd think they'd clearly know that. So, if he is intelligent, relatively mobile and has a good release motion you'd think he can play at at least a backup level.

If one were to agree that Chip Kelly's offense makes it easier for a QB to look good then there are likely offenses that do the opposite. Whether that is too many reads, too few reads, too little confusion created for the defense or too predictable formation/playcall combinations there could be reasons why even a smart QB with a quick release could look like he doesn't get "it". The other Minn QB, Cassell, seems to demonstrate that the system made him look pretty good at NE.

It appears Brady makes receivers look better, but they have to run the right route and be there at the right time. I have no idea if the Minn recievers coach is a good one or if the receivers are precise or just good athletes. Saw an article on Golden Tate in which it was agreed he was a "run down and catch it" guy early and has finally learned he needs to run precise routes and be exactly where he needs to be at exactly the right time. So much of the passing game is timing, Brady wasn't suddenly a worse QB this year when his young receivers ran onto the field.

So, Ponder may or may not be capable, but if I were Minn. I'd be careful about assuming a new QB is much better and that difference translates into wins.
Click to expand...

I think you're right that the great quarterbacks today are smart. The have to be with the sophisticated defenses they see and the need to audible. But they also need to possess an intelligence that is more like Gretzky's ability to see the ice. What a quarterback sees back there behind mountainous linemen is not at all like what we see--its more like a high speed, multiple vehicle, car wreck in progress. I don't think Ponder has a highly developed ability to see the field and react quickly and intuitively. He's OK, and maybe he will develop that, but he's got a long way to go. And if his receivers and other teammates doubt him, you've got an even worse problem.
 
Re: 2013 NFL Season. Tebow on the Brady Bunch(en)? Goodell will to all men!

burd said:
I think you're right that the great quarterbacks today are smart. The have to be with the sophisticated defenses they see and the need to audible. But they also need to possess an intelligence that is more like Gretzky's ability to see the ice. What a quarterback sees back there behind mountainous linemen is not at all like what we see--its more like a high speed, multiple vehicle, car wreck in progress. I don't think Ponder has a highly developed ability to see the field and react quickly and intuitively. He's OK, and maybe he will develop that, but he's got a long way to go. And if his receivers and other teammates doubt him, you've got an even worse problem.
Click to expand...

Just like any other job, there is a difference between book-smart and job-smart.
 
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