2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

[OnMAA]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

No, 12,402 turned out for the same event the following season versus Bemidji State:
http://www.collegehockeystats.net/1112/boxes/wbmjwis1.j28

Thanks...Added this to the list.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

Even though the final score was close, it was clear from the game and shot totals that the U.S. was had significantly better skaters -- still close enough that a few bounces and goaltending can make a difference in the score, but the U.S. is better, so Canada has reason to be concerned.

But again, people need some perspective, and to understand the differences between Olympics and World Championships and NCAA hockey and post-NCAA hockey. Canada has ALWAYS carried a much older roster since the dawn of NCAA hockey and the oldest players always get criticized for hanging around too long. It used to be the Canada could be older because it's older players were actually pretty good, the U.S. couldn't maintain as much depth among older players, and the Canadian college-aged players used to be at least on par with the Americans' college-aged players if not better.

Now Canada clearly has less depth in terms of college-aged players, and if that persists, that'll make it much, much harder for Canada to win World Championships, because it's always the college players who are most game-ready for these World Championships. I don't know the details of why Canada's producing relatively fewer top NCAA players than in the past, but it sounds right that it's about the U.S. doing a relatively better job of development at younger age levels than it used to.

But when it comes to the Olympics, it could be a different story. We haven't ever seen recent U.S. college graduates make nearly as large a difference in U.S. Olympic outcomes. Now some of this is just that 2002 the U.S. college game wasn't as big and the U.S. was centralized two years anyway, and the 2006 U.S. team was a mess for other reasons. But I think there are good reasons for this more generally. First, centralization prior to the Olympics raises the older players to an environment that puts them on a much more level playing field with the younger players. Second, the experience factor may be relatively more important for an Olympic gold medal game than a World Championship gold medal game. Those college players have done a couple World Championships by now but it'll be their first Olympics - though experience clearly isn't an enormous factor since Canada has had pre-NCAA players like Piper and Philip-Poulin make a big impact in both gold medal wins over the U.S. At the same time, it could also be true that the NCAA game is now so good now we could see this change in 2014, and you did see Agosta lead the Olympics in scoring last time around.

Addendum:
-- Obviously some recent college players had/will have Olympic experience, like Agosta in 2010 or the Lams in 2014.
-- Canada has won the last two U-18 worlds so they're not a total disaster, but U.S. did win 3 of 4 before that, and that success has projected forward well. And it's unclear if that Canada present success in Worlds will project out in the same way, if that success was due to say, goaltending, where the depth isn't as important.

Great insights. Yesterday, on the local radio sports show, NBC's Pierre McGuire discussed the difference in development between the US and Canadian system. He said that in the US there is much more focus on skating and edge control at a younger age, while in Canada there is more focus on play with the puck. He saw that as the main reason for the difference in speed between the two nations, and made it abundantly clear that this applied to men and women and that the results have been noticeable in both the Men's Junior Worlds ( a high profile event for Canadians) and in the Women's game.

 

[brookyone]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

Not expecting anything to happen overnight...but did anyone watching get a sense that Russia is on a path to become significantly more competitive at a not too distant future point? I didn't see them play but being on their home stage for the 2014 winter games has possibly stoked a little fire for their women's program? I guess my questions would be regarding increased resources and the current talent pool, then their potential...how good can they be a year from now? Surely it's a goal to medal in Sochi.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

Not expecting anything to happen overnight...but did anyone watching get a sense that Russia is on a path to become significantly more competitive at a not too distant future point? I didn't see them play but being on their home stage for the 2014 winter games has possibly stoked a little fire for their women's program? I guess my questions would be regarding increased resources and the current talent pool, then their potential...how good can they be a year from now? Surely it's a goal to medal in Sochi.

I did see the Russian team play twice. Their only loss was against Canada in the Semi, otherwise they went undefeated, and several of their wins were in convincing fashion> Their top players are creative and have good skill and speed. They brought in professional help from the Men's side and put in more resources. They will be a very strong contender for the Bronze medal next year. However, like other nations, they don't have the depth to compete with Canada or the US, and don't see that change for next year. It will be more interesting to see if they stick with the program after Sochi.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

SOOOOOOO great to see the USA win this last night! The silence in Ottawa was AMAZING!

 

[Yaforsure]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

Even though the final score was close, it was clear from the game and shot totals that the U.S. was had significantly better skaters -- still close enough that a few bounces and goaltending can make a difference in the score, but the U.S. is better, so Canada has reason to be concerned.

But again, people need some perspective, and to understand the differences between Olympics and World Championships and NCAA hockey and post-NCAA hockey. Canada has ALWAYS carried a much older roster since the dawn of NCAA hockey and the oldest players always get criticized for hanging around too long. It used to be the Canada could be older because it's older players were actually pretty good, the U.S. couldn't maintain as much depth among older players, and the Canadian college-aged players used to be at least on par with the Americans' college-aged players if not better.

Now Canada clearly has less depth in terms of college-aged players, and if that persists, that'll make it much, much harder for Canada to win World Championships, because it's always the college players who are most game-ready for these World Championships. I don't know the details of why Canada's producing relatively fewer top NCAA players than in the past, but it sounds right that it's about the U.S. doing a relatively better job of development at younger age levels than it used to.

But when it comes to the Olympics, it could be a different story. We haven't ever seen recent U.S. college graduates make nearly as large a difference in U.S. Olympic outcomes. Now some of this is just that 2002 the U.S. college game wasn't as big and the U.S. was centralized two years anyway, and the 2006 U.S. team was a mess for other reasons. But I think there are good reasons for this more generally. First, centralization prior to the Olympics raises the older players to an environment that puts them on a much more level playing field with the younger players. Second, the experience factor may be relatively more important for an Olympic gold medal game than a World Championship gold medal game. Those college players have done a couple World Championships by now but it'll be their first Olympics - though experience clearly isn't an enormous factor since Canada has had pre-NCAA players like Piper and Philip-Poulin make a big impact in both gold medal wins over the U.S. At the same time, it could also be true that the NCAA game is now so good now we could see this change in 2014, and you did see Agosta lead the Olympics in scoring last time around.

Addendum:
-- Obviously some recent college players had/will have Olympic experience, like Agosta in 2010 or the Lams in 2014.
-- Canada has won the last two U-18 worlds so they're not a total disaster, but U.S. did win 3 of 4 before that, and that success has projected forward well. And it's unclear if that Canada present success in Worlds will project out in the same way, if that success was due to say, goaltending, where the depth isn't as important.

Canada has always been about playing with heart.. Canada will adjust accordingly and I do agree that USA did out skate Canada but the U22 development team has some great skaters who are highly skilled. As for depth, I would disagree and know that Canada has a lot of good players coming up. Ie: SAilnier, Bestland, Daoust, Campbell, Dufualt, Rattray, Lacquette, Edney just to name a few. I've seen these gals play and can see that they are close or even ready to step up for the Sr level.
Socchi will be a different story. Gold is what Canada's benchmark for success is based on. Cheers

 

[LG4]

Canada has always been about playing with heart.. Canada will adjust accordingly and I do agree that USA did out skate Canada but the U22 development team has some great skaters who are highly skilled. As for depth, I would disagree and know that Canada has a lot of good players coming up. Ie: SAilnier, Bestland, Daoust, Campbell, Dufualt, Rattray, Lacquette, Edney just to name a few. I've seen these gals play and can see that they are close or even ready to step up for the Sr level.
Socchi will be a different story. Gold is what Canada's benchmark for success is based on. Cheers

I hope so but in terms of planning it was at this worlds that Canada should have tested those names mentioned so they had a good idea of who should centralize. With Wickenheiser injured for example that would have been the perfect time to evaluate a borderline player without anybody being put out.

 

[dave1381]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

To clarify, I had a different concept of depth in mind than Yaforsure. If you're looking at the set of college-age players now, I'm guessing there isn't a huge difference between the 10th best American and 10th best Canadian, who are probably marginal to make the Olympic teams. But I think there's a difference between the 1st-5th best American and the 1st-5th best Canadian. Or maybe even the 7th best American and 7th best Canadian. And I say that was the #1 difference in this World Championship, and it could be the difference in the Olympics - college players haven't made as big impact in the Olympics, but 2014 could be the year that changes.

 

[David De Remer]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

Alexei Yashin provides what I consider to be a meek response regarding the future of women's hockey here. I've drafted the following message to Russia's hockey federation:
------

I'm writing to express my disappointment with Alexei Yashin's tepid response to a question posed by Yahoo Sports on the future of women's ice hockey: “There is a lot of talk whether women’s hockey will be around in the future. All I have to say is that women’s hockey will be played at the Sochi Olympics.... And as far as what happen after that? That should be handled by the IOC. But my opinion, as someone who follows women’s hockey very closely, I really like it."

Mr. Yashin is of course correct that only the IOC has the direct power to determine women's ice hockey's future as an Olympic sport. But as General Manager of the Russian Women's Hockey National Team and a two-time Olympic medalist, I expect Mr. Yashin to be unequivocally insistent on preserving women's hockey's Olympic future when the IOC's threats against women's hockey run counter to both the Olympic motto and gender equity ideals.

When IOC President Jacques Rogge observed a "discrepancy" in the 2010 Olympic women's hockey competition and stated "we cannot continue without improvement," his statement directly contracted the Olympic motto "Citius, Altius, Fortius" which roughly translated means "faster, higher, stronger." Threatening the sport due to a discrepancy in results is equivalent to punishing the U.S. and Canadian federations for their own success, while lending credence to the second-class treatment of women's hockey athletes from many other federations. Any governing body that encourages athletes to give anything but their best violates the integrity of competition. As a longtime competitor in both the Olympics and professional ice hockey, Mr. Yashin should be more offended by any talk of cutting women's ice hockey from the Olympics.

Aside from violating the integrity of the women's ice hockey competition, Rogge's threat applies a clear double standard to women's ice hockey that was never applied to men's ice hockey in its infancy. The discrepancy in women's scores today is nothing compared to Canada's dominance of the first 32 years of Olympic men's ice hockey competition. Olympic women's ice hockey deserves just as much time to grow as Olympic men's ice hockey. Had Rogge's threat been applied to men's ice hockey at the same stage of development, then there would be no Soviet/Russian tradition in Olympic ice hockey, and Mr. Yashin would no longer have two Olympic medals.

Mr. Yashin and the Ice Hockey Federation of Russia may have no direct power to preserve women's ice hockey's place in the Olympic program, but they do have the power to communicate the hypocrisy of the IOC's threats to a wide audience and to pressure the IOC. I'm optimistic that the women's ice hockey competition will continue to improve as more ice hockey federations move toward supporting women on par with the U.S. and Canadian federations. European women's hockey competitors will continue to improve as they receive guidance from North American mentors and scholarships from U.S. colleges. I hope that the Ice Hockey Federation of Russia does all it can to ensure that women's ice hockey always maintains the place in the Olympics that it deserves.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Alexei Yashin provides what I consider to be a meek response regarding the future of women's hockey here. I've drafted the following message to Russia's hockey federation:
------

I'm writing to express my disappointment with Alexei Yashin's tepid response to a question posed by Yahoo Sports on the future of women's ice hockey: “There is a lot of talk whether women’s hockey will be around in the future. All I have to say is that women’s hockey will be played at the Sochi Olympics.... And as far as what happen after that? That should be handled by the IOC. But my opinion, as someone who follows women’s hockey very closely, I really like it."

Mr. Yashin is of course correct that only the IOC has the direct power to determine women's ice hockey's future as an Olympic sport. But as General Manager of the Russian Women's Hockey National Team and a two-time Olympic medalist, I expect Mr. Yashin to be unequivocally insistent on preserving women's hockey's Olympic future when the IOC's threats against women's hockey run counter to both the Olympic motto and gender equity ideals.

When IOC President Jacques Rogge observed a "discrepancy" in the 2010 Olympic women's hockey competition and stated "we cannot continue without improvement," his statement directly contracted the Olympic motto "Citius, Altius, Fortius" which roughly translated means "faster, higher, stronger." Threatening the sport due to a discrepancy in results is equivalent to punishing the U.S. and Canadian federations for their own success, while lending credence to the second-class treatment of women's hockey athletes from many other federations. Any governing body that encourages athletes to give anything but their best violates the integrity of competition. As a longtime competitor in both the Olympics and professional ice hockey, Mr. Yashin should be more offended by any talk of cutting women's ice hockey from the Olympics.

Aside from violating the integrity of the women's ice hockey competition, Rogge's threat applies a clear double standard to women's ice hockey that was never applied to men's ice hockey in its infancy. The discrepancy in women's scores today is nothing compared to Canada's dominance of the first 32 years of Olympic men's ice hockey competition. Olympic women's ice hockey deserves just as much time to grow as Olympic men's ice hockey. Had Rogge's threat been applied to men's ice hockey at the same stage of development, then there would be no Soviet/Russian tradition in Olympic ice hockey, and Mr. Yashin would no longer have two Olympic medals.

Mr. Yashin and the Ice Hockey Federation of Russia may have no direct power to preserve women's ice hockey's place in the Olympic program, but they do have the power to communicate the hypocrisy of the IOC's threats to a wide audience and to pressure the IOC. I'm optimistic that the women's ice hockey competition will continue to improve as more ice hockey federations move toward supporting women on par with the U.S. and Canadian federations. European women's hockey competitors will continue to improve as they receive guidance from North American mentors and scholarships from U.S. colleges. I hope that the Ice Hockey Federation of Russia does all it can to ensure that women's ice hockey always maintains the place in the Olympics that it deserves.

Great post!

 

[ARM]

Re: 2013 IIHF Ice Hockey Women's World Championship

The media all-star team included:

Goal: Noora Raty (FIN)

Defence: Meghan Mikkelson (CAN), Catherine Ward (CAN)

Forwards: Marie-Philip Poulin (CAN), Brianna Decker (USA), Jennifer Wakefield (CAN)

Interesting discussion about the current competitive balance of the US versus Canada in light of the above; obviously, the media thinks rather highly of the Canadian team as it is. I don't ever remember an all-tournament team being so dominated by a team that didn't win a tournament.

Isn't it tough to say how the two teams compare based on the result of such a competition when most of the games come down to a single shot here, save there, or the odd bounce? Other than the rare cases like 2006 when Canada was clearly much better, there has been little separation. If Canada is entitled to a complaint, maybe it should be why it isn't more dominant year in and year out. Perhaps the explanation is that as we see often in the best NCAA rivalries, sometimes the passion of a rivalry can bridge a talent gap to some extent.

I do think that the talent advantage that Canada once enjoyed has decreased to some extent. Offhand, I'd say that a big factor is that the US depth has improved. Eight to 10 years ago, it seemed that there was a visible decrease on American squads after the top five or six forwards. Now they are able to put out a line like Decker with Kessel and Coyne and still have other people available like the Lam's, Knight, and Duggan who are capable of scoring versus Canada. Canada has always had depth, and I don't see that changing. They definitely have some young players in the wings, but I'd say that the US does now as well. I also think that the goaltending is more equitable than it was in the days where the top three goalies on all rosters at an international tournament would be wearing red and white.

As long as the team chemistry doesn't get messed up as it did for the US in 2006 or the serious injuries don't become totally one-sided, I'd expect that the close competitions would continue to be the rule rather than the exception. The team that loses will conclude that the sky is falling, when really the difference between winning and losing is razor thin.

It is ironic that even in the years when there has been an obvious surplus of talent in Canada, that talent has rarely shifted the balance of power at the top at the NCAA level. If I'm remembering right, UMD has only had two Canadian Olympians to date, Ouellette and Irwin, although I'd expect Larocque to join that list next year. Wisconsin has had MacLeod (who was never an NCAA champ) and Mikkelsen. Minnesota hasn't had any Canadian Olympians. The impact seems to be similar to that of Piper and Apps, who had good careers at Darmouth, but it never translated into team success to the degree that it did for Team Canada. That's not to say that NCAA championship teams did not receive contributions from Canadian players. Clearly they did, but it wasn't necessarily the elite players, although Bauer would be on the elite list despite no Olympic experience.