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2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
No, I don't. They aren't perfectly dependent, but they aren't mutually exclusive, either. You still have to seek the correct avenues in order to progress. That's where opportunity comes into play. Sure, the road along the opportunity could be made easier with some capital, but you have to find the road first.
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Maybe I'm just slow, but that didn't make much sense to me. You just stated that wealth and opportunity are not mutually exclusive. I agree. You state that, if the "road along the opportunity" is found, it is made easier with capital. I'm not sure what "road along the opportunity" means, but I think I agree. Let's see if I can rephrase...

Those born into wealth have an easier road along the opportunity. In addition, being born into wealth is not mutually exclusive with increased opportunity. Agreed?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

BassAle said:
and the gains haven't already been taxed. so the "double taxed" argument is wrong.
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The double tax does apply to dividends, though, because it's the same transaction of earnings.

One suggestion that I had made is to make the shareholders individually responsible for the earnings per share, which would essentially get rid of stock dividend reporting as well as corporate taxes. It would be tricky with mutual funds, as the hedge fund owner is the one who is the owner of those specific shares.
 
BassAle said:
and the gains haven't already been taxed. so the "double taxed" argument is wrong.
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You are taking money that is taxed then taxing it again (since you can't have capital gains unless you have money to invest and hope it grows). Like corp profits being taxed, dividends paid, then the dividends being taxed again.
The taxed fruit bears fruit that is taxed again.

If y'all want to push for 50% cap gains tax go ahead. But don't compare it to income tax from w2.

I showed mitt pays a high % of his "income" already compared to me. I don't remember anyone showing their cards in there... Just "that's too low" crying and whining. Mitt doesn't work, deal with it or change it... But that change ain't what BHO is leading to with his silent put down of boner.
 
The Exiled One said:
Those born into wealth have an easier road along the opportunity. In addition, being born into wealth is not mutually exclusive with increased opportunity. Agreed?
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Duh.

And those with an IQ of 150 vs 95.

You have many variables, yes. And starting on 3rd base helps you, of course.

Again, it's "opportunity". Access to $$ is an opportunity.

I've always pushed for the Jefferson wealth tax. Grand idea who's ship has unfortunately sailed. So be it
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
Maybe I'm just slow, but that didn't make much sense to me. You just stated that wealth and opportunity are not mutually exclusive. I agree. You state that, if the "road along the opportunity" is found, it is made easier with capital. I'm not sure what "road along the opportunity" means, but I think I agree. Let's see if I can rephrase...

Those born into wealth have an easier road along the opportunity. In addition, being born into wealth is not mutually exclusive with increased opportunity. Agreed?
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Not quite. There's no guarantee that wealth makes seizing an opportunity easier, because you could still misdirect the wealth. Just take a look at any episode of "Kitchen Nightmares" to see what I mean (and you need to look beyond Gordon Ramsay's cussing). Some of those people **** away millions of dollars and don't see success. Some even enjoyed very successful careers as underlings to become rich, but then once they decide to become the boss, they're in for a rude awakening. In speaking of Gordon Ramsay, some of his family were heroin addicts, yet he became a multimillionaire.

Wealth isn't the only factor to determine opportunity success, either. You also have knowledge of the situation, as well as your own perspiration. What I meant by "road along the opportunity" (and re-reading that, I still don't what the heck I was thinking when typing that phrase; I commonly skip words) is that as you are looking to seize your opportunity, there are three tools you need in order to help you along the way: capital, knowledge, and perspiration. Every opportunity has different requirements for the three, as well as different goals in the end.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

mookie1995 said:
You are taking money that is taxed then taxing it again (since you can't have capital gains unless you have money to invest and hope it grows). Like corp profits being taxed, dividends paid, then the dividends being taxed again.
The taxed fruit bears fruit that is taxed again.

If y'all want to push for 50% cap gains tax go ahead. But don't compare it to income tax from w2.

I showed mitt pays a high % of his "income" already compared to me. I don't remember anyone showing their cards in there... Just "that's too low" crying and whining. Mitt doesn't work, deal with it or change it... But that change ain't what BHO is leading to with his silent put down of boner.
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I would disagree with the notion that capital gains is a double tax. The earning of the original capital and the earning of value appreciation are two completely different transactions. Dividends, on the other hand, are entirely based around the earnings per share of a company in a given month, quarter, semester, or year, so that truly is a double tax. Remember that it is not you that is earning the money in that case, it is your asset.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

ScoobyDoo said:
Tell that to the little girl who didn't graduate High School because her mom's a crack whore. Tell her that she started out with the same slate as Mittens. Then get back to us.
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Gordon Ramsay, whose dad was a heroin addict, will be interested in this whine.
 
FlagDUDE08 said:
Not quite. There's no guarantee that wealth makes seizing an opportunity easier,....
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No flaggy, starting with wealth DOES make the opportunity easier. It doesn't though make the result easier.

One can seize any opportunity, then screw it mightily.

You are mixing apples and oranges.
 
FlagDUDE08 said:
. Remember that it is not you that is earning the money in that case, it is your asset.
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Which is why it's not to be confused as income (and the resulting taxes).

And I still consider cause and effect. I earn money that comes net of tax. I spend it or invest it. If I invest and it becomes something and is taxed again I am taxing the 1st dollar again.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

It would create a new universe of accountants (Mookie, job creator!!)

But I would only consider initial (and maybe tier 2) investing to be eligible for lower level capital gain. Stock market is equal to casino gambling. I could listen to an argument that this is ordinary income (or hell, higher rate "vice" income).

Of course this still leaves mitt as private equity paying rates that make scooby's blood boil :p
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
Not quite. There's no guarantee that wealth makes seizing an opportunity easier, because you could still misdirect the wealth. Just take a look at any episode of "Kitchen Nightmares" to see what I mean (and you need to look beyond Gordon Ramsay's cussing). Some of those people **** away millions of dollars and don't see success. Some even enjoyed very successful careers as underlings to become rich, but then once they decide to become the boss, they're in for a rude awakening. In speaking of Gordon Ramsay, some of his family were heroin addicts, yet he became a multimillionaire.

Wealth isn't the only factor to determine opportunity success, either. You also have knowledge of the situation, as well as your own perspiration. What I meant by "road along the opportunity" (and re-reading that, I still don't what the heck I was thinking when typing that phrase; I commonly skip words) is that as you are looking to seize your opportunity, there are three tools you need in order to help you along the way: capital, knowledge, and perspiration. Every opportunity has different requirements for the three, as well as different goals in the end.
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But the stats still back me up... poor gorgeous geniuses will less often be rich than the John T. Waltons of the world. There are other factors, as I've conceded, but there is one that is most predictive.

The funny thing is, as a rich heir, you could do literally nothing and still be "successful." A billion dollars in the bank earning a 2% return is an annual income of $2,000,000. Not a bad living for somebody doing absolutely nothing to earn it.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
But the stats still back me up... poor gorgeous geniuses will less often be rich than the John T. Waltons of the world. There are other factors, as I've conceded, but there is one that is most predictive.

The funny thing is, as a rich heir, you could do literally nothing and still be "successful." A billion dollars in the bank earning a 2% return is an annual income of $2,000,000. Not a bad living for somebody doing absolutely nothing to earn it.
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$20,000,000, actually. ;) And that's assuming the rich heir leaves it in the bank and doesn't go out to buy a small country.

I think this is where we need to accept that optimism and pessimism will never agree, and leave it at that. There's no question that you sometimes need to go through other opportunities before coming to the "main opportunity" we seem to be arguing about due to a lack of the three factors. Just so long as we're willing to agree that it is improbable, but not without possibility, and I think your usage of "less often" does state that.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

ScoobyDoo said:
There's exceptions to every rule.
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It's not really an exception, so much as it is seizing an opportunity to get out of that life and try something else. Sure, the road may be difficult, but it isn't impossible.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
$20,000,000, actually. ;) And that's assuming the rich heir leaves it in the bank and doesn't go out to buy a small country.

I think this is where we need to accept that optimism and pessimism will never agree, and leave it at that. There's no question that you sometimes need to go through other opportunities before coming to the "main opportunity" we seem to be arguing about due to a lack of the three factors. Just so long as we're willing to agree that it is improbable, but not without possibility, and I think your usage of "less often" does state that.
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Thanks for the math correction.

Here's my final observation (this is not a criticism): There is nowhere in the world where every individual is born into an absolute equal level of opportunity.

Here's the criticism: Do we want to live in that world? If so, how do we create it?

Here's my caveat: I don't want to spread wealth. I'm not a communist. I want to spread opportunity. Does that make me an opportunist?
 
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