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2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

5mn_Major said:
It doesn't...but there are also murders committed by guns that are purchased yet not registered. If we hold out for one solution that solves everything...we'll never fix anything.

When you walk into a store...there are signs saying 'we have cameras watching you'. It's a proven fact that this messaging that 'we're watching' drastically cuts down on shop lifting. Telling a would be murder in advance that 'we know that this is your gun' should deter some. And deterring a couple of murders is good enough.
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I hate to tell you this (and I'm not sure if this was your angle or not), but that second paragraph is one of the best arguments against gun control. If you know someone is either armed or has a possibility of being armed, you're not going to try anything foolish with them around.
 
FlagDUDE08 said:
I love how we're all looking to lmit magazine sizes, method of reload, or even the legal existence of weapons, yet no one is taking into account the black market. Pot's illegal in this country (at least in most places), yet people still smoke it. During prohibition, you had speakeasies and bootleggers. If you ban guns, do you really think that people aren't going to figure out a way to get one?
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Murder is illegal too, but it still happens. That doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to reduce the murder rate.

Surely you cannot be happy with the status quo of violence in this country. So instead of simply mocking every proposed idea, try coming up with something constructive to advance the conversation.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

unofan said:
Murder is illegal too, but it still happens. That doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to reduce the murder rate.

Surely you cannot be happy with the status quo of violence in this country. So instead of simply mocking every proposed idea, try coming up with something constructive to advance the conversation.
Click to expand...

I don't think you have been reading what I've been posting. Either that, or you're not opening to considering what I have been proposing because it doesn't fit with what you propose.

Sorry buddy, I gave you a chance, but back to ignore you go.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
My argument is also still pretty solid: Legislating the size of a magazine does not create an inability to obtain or engineer something of a larger size outside of the realm of the law. I believe it was earlier in the thread mentioning something about a plug being removed from a shotgun to allow for more ammunition; I don't know the exact mechanics of that loading, but why couldn't you fairly easily fabricate an extension to allow for more ammo? Didn't Mr. Harris also use a sawed-off shotgun in his assault?

The point is that you could legislate until you're blue in the face, but it's still just empty words. Perhaps something other than the pistol or the ammo is the problem.
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No, it doesn't prevent it, it just hinders it to the point of potentially saving lives. If we can save a single life, at no cost, without infringing on anybody's rights, why wouldn't we do that? One of our major differences is that I don't believe there is a singular problem. I believe there are many. Many problems require many solutions. So yes, it may require legislating until we are blue in the face.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

walrus said:
Their are pumps that will hold more than 5 with the simple removal of a plug, for hunting in Maine 5 shells is it but remove that plug and it might hold as much as 8? Never seen one but I've heard it can be done.
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I've never seen one...both of my pumps hold 5 with no plugs, and I know that some hold 6. My semi-auto Weatherby only holds 3, but that is because I need some kind of magic wrench to get the plug out. :p
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
No, it doesn't prevent it, it just hinders it to the point of potentially saving lives. If we can save a single life, at no cost, without infringing on anybody's rights, why wouldn't we do that? One of our major differences is that I don't believe there is a singular problem. I believe there are many. Many problems require many solutions. So yes, it may require legislating until we are blue in the face.
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Well, there is a singular problem: People are ****ed up. That is the heart of the whole conversation.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
No, it doesn't prevent it, it just hinders it to the point of potentially saving lives. If we can save a single life, at no cost, without infringing on anybody's rights, why wouldn't we do that? One of our major differences is that I don't believe there is a singular problem. I believe there are many. Many problems require many solutions. So yes, it may require legislating until we are blue in the face.
Click to expand...

Perhaps Elvis can put this into perspective...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2Ox1Tore9nw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

FlagDUDE08 said:
I hate to tell you this (and I'm not sure if this was your angle or not), but that second paragraph is one of the best arguments against gun control. If you know someone is either armed or has a possibility of being armed, you're not going to try anything foolish with them around.
Click to expand...

Think we're talking past each other....not sure what your talking about. The thinking is that gun registration (as with car registration) is just one more message that gun owners are being watched (in this case, by the govt). That's not a big deal, unless they plan on breaking the law.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

5mn_Major said:
It doesn't...but there are also murders committed by guns that are purchased yet not registered. If we hold out for one solution that solves everything...we'll never fix anything.

When you walk into a store...there are signs saying 'we have cameras watching you'. It's a proven fact that this messaging that 'we're watching' drastically cuts down on shop lifting. Telling a would be murder in advance that 'we know that this is your gun' should deter some. And deterring a couple of murders is good enough.
Click to expand...
But here is the problem. It's just like prohibition. People thought that drunkeness was a problem. So what did they do? They took away alcohol. Didn't solve the problem. In fact, it created new, unforeseen problems. It also made alcohol that much more desireable.

The same thing is happening with guns and ammo. I just saw a news story today that there has been this big run on guns and ammunition because of all these stories, and the fear that government is going to do something to try to make it harder to purchase them. So the great irony is, the slaughter of 20 children in school has created a run on guns due to the President going on tv and saying, in effect, we're about to make it harder to get them.

We all know murder is illegal. Obviously that hasn't been enough of a deterrent. There are laws that forbid carrying concealed weapons. Laws against having guns in schools, etc... None apparently have worked to everyone's satisfaction.

If you need to pass a law, passing one that limits the size of an ammo clip, or forbids the purchase of certain types of guns, or makes the purchaser wait 7 days will have no effect, or such a tiny effect it will be essentially worthless.

You want to pass a law with some effect, don't target the object. Target the conduct and the people.

You want to buy a gun. No problem. Someone kills someone with that gun, now you have a problem. Make them civilly, and even criminally liable.

Your kid takes your gun out of a closet and murders a bunch of children, you are about to get prosecuted for a crime. Those are the types of laws that have a much greater chance of success. And if nothing else, at least it will satisfy the public's blood lust when the psycho kills himself and we have no one to publicly vilify.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

SJHovey said:
If you need to pass a law, passing one that limits the size of an ammo clip, or forbids the purchase of certain types of guns, or makes the purchaser wait 7 days will have no effect, or such a tiny effect it will be essentially worthless.

You want to pass a law with some effect, don't target the object. Target the conduct and the people.

You want to buy a gun. No problem. Someone kills someone with that gun, now you have a problem. Make them civilly, and even criminally liable.

Your kid takes your gun out of a closet and murders a bunch of children, you are about to get prosecuted for a crime. Those are the types of laws that have a much greater chance of success. And if nothing else, at least it will satisfy the public's blood lust when the psycho kills himself and we have no one to publicly vilify.
Click to expand...

Correct on all counts. You buy a gun, you're criminall liable for what happens with that gun.

Problem solved.

Maybe Lanza's mom would have locked the damm things up then? Probably not.

Back to square one.

There's no hope.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

5mn_Major said:
Think we're talking past each other....not sure what your talking about. The thinking is that gun registration (as with car registration) is just one more message that gun owners are being watched (in this case, by the govt). That's not a big deal, unless they plan on breaking the law.
Click to expand...

My point has been that people do this sort of thing in places such as schools because they believe they can physically (at least at the time) achieve the expected result of the act, since weapons are not allowed. You said that a sign stating there are cameras in the store would deter people from stealing, yes? So, let's dissect that. Let's say you were going to steal a candy bar. Wouldn't you do it when someone isn't looking? And why would you do it when someone isn't looking? Because you're more likely to achieve the expected result of the act.

Knowing that, let's go back to the instance of the assassination. Let's say you find out that someone is there that is armed. Knowing this, there's a good chance you'll have to go up against them in order to achieve your goals. The chances of achieving the expected result have decreased dramatically. You can't quickly get what you want, but rather have to work for it. You're less likely to do so.

Registration may be a step, but all you have to then do is steal someone else's gun, and not only can you achieve the expected result, but frame someone else in the process.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

SJHovey said:
If you need to pass a law, passing one that limits the size of an ammo clip, or forbids the purchase of certain types of guns, or makes the purchaser wait 7 days will have no effect, or such a tiny effect it will be essentially worthless.
Click to expand...
What if the "tiny" effect is that a first grader's life is spared?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

ScoobyDoo said:
Correct on all counts. You buy a gun, you're criminall liable for what happens with that gun.

Problem solved.

Maybe Lanza's mom would have locked the damm things up then? Probably not.

Back to square one.

There's no hope.
Click to expand...

I did mention a situation previously involving busting the cabinet (I think I used the glass in my example) to get to the guns. Or, say her keys to the cabinet were hanging on a hook while she was sleeping (after all, this happened very early in the day, and it's not like a mother is going to put her son out onto the streets).
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

SJHovey said:
But here is the problem. It's just like prohibition. People thought that drunkeness was a problem. So what did they do? They took away alcohol. Didn't solve the problem. In fact, it created new, unforeseen problems. It also made alcohol that much more desireable.

The same thing is happening with guns and ammo. I just saw a news story today that there has been this big run on guns and ammunition because of all these stories, and the fear that government is going to do something to try to make it harder to purchase them. So the great irony is, the slaughter of 20 children in school has created a run on guns due to the President going on tv and saying, in effect, we're about to make it harder to get them.

We all know murder is illegal. Obviously that hasn't been enough of a deterrent. There are laws that forbid carrying concealed weapons. Laws against having guns in schools, etc... None apparently have worked to everyone's satisfaction.

If you need to pass a law, passing one that limits the size of an ammo clip, or forbids the purchase of certain types of guns, or makes the purchaser wait 7 days will have no effect, or such a tiny effect it will be essentially worthless.

You want to pass a law with some effect, don't target the object. Target the conduct and the people.

You want to buy a gun. No problem. Someone kills someone with that gun, now you have a problem. Make them civilly, and even criminally liable.

Your kid takes your gun out of a closet and murders a bunch of children, you are about to get prosecuted for a crime. Those are the types of laws that have a much greater chance of success. And if nothing else, at least it will satisfy the public's blood lust when the psycho kills himself and we have no one to publicly vilify.
Click to expand...

Your solutions are good and worthy. Make it so number one. But there still is some action that can be taken on other fronts. Major societal problems such as disease take multiple approaches to address.

Regarding registration, we're not making it illegal to own guns (to your prohibition argument). You can own one fine...its just that you need to register it. That doesn't make it any sexier. If one doesn't register...then one is not a law abiding citizen anyways, is likely open criminal activity in general, and when discovered, may be worthy of police supervision for further criminal activity. Just a note to say that if youre thinking about committing a criminal act, society knows you have that gun.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The Exiled One said:
What if the "tiny" effect is that a first grader's life is spared?
Click to expand...
We're going around and around, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I see the problem, you could enact a ban on the sale of all guns, of any type, and all clips, of any size, and crazy people are still going to kill innocent people.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

SJHovey said:
We're going around and around, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I see the problem, you could enact a ban on the sale of all guns, of any type, and all clips, of any size, and crazy people are still going to kill innocent people.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Hopeless. Just like the planet.
 
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