2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I'm going slightly off topic here, but this reminded me of a current event here in Maine. One of the school districts in northern Maine (like 200+ miles north of Bangor) is making major cuts because the town gave a huge tax cut to the local paper mill (it threatened to shut down otherwise, which would be devastating to the town). The teachers took what was almost a 10% paycut and the administration took a 2% pay cut. Looking through the comments in the paper, there were people happy the teachers were getting their pay cut. Some even went so far as to say that teachers should not be making more than the public which pays them (in many rural towns teaching jobs are some of the highest paid) -- never mind the fact that in many small rural towns the average income is terribly low as most of the jobs are low skill and low pay. Don't you want to have the best and brightest teaching your children? You don't attract the best and brightest with ****ty pay.

That's sad, but that's pretty much expected based on the economic models used for many small towns. Someone builds a factory, people flock their for jobs, then the factory eventually ends and they either all have to move or figure something else out. It's why large population centers are usually more stable.

The backlash against teachers in this country is really interesting. I've never seen such an honorable profession be so vilified before. I wonder why anyone would ever become one. Same with many Health Care professions today.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

That's sad, but that's pretty much expected based on the economic models used for many small towns. Someone builds a factory, people flock their for jobs, then the factory eventually ends and they either all have to move or figure something else out. It's why large population centers are usually more stable.

The backlash against teachers in this country is really interesting. I've never seen such an honorable profession be so vilified before. I wonder why anyone would ever become one. Same with many Health Care professions today.

The backlash is not against Miss Plimsol, who taught you algebra your freshman year. Nor against teachers in general. It is against teachers unions, which throw their money and weight around to affect the outcome of elections and make sure their cushy benefits increase, even at the cost of higher taxes. These same unions also fight to the death any change in the status quo, like demanding greater competence, accountability and professionalism from their members. And these unions have no problem leaving tens of thousands of kids without instruction when they engage in strikes, justifying their greed and indifference by claiming it's "for the kids." If teachers unions act like teamsters, why should it be be surprising if people treat them like teamsters?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The backlash against teachers in this country is really interesting. I've never seen such an honorable profession be so vilified before.

I've seen no evidence whatsoever of any "backlash against teachers." Even Chris Christie praises teachers right before he lashes into the leaders of teachers' unions.

Teachers' unions do not have their members' best interests at heart. They care only about the well-being of union leaders.

If I won a mega-millions Powerball jackpot, one thing I'd be tempted to do is start up an alternative union for teachers, that would advocate for policies that actually do benefit teachers who care about the quality of their professional work.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

The backlash is not against Miss Plimsol, who taught you algebra your freshman year. Nor against teachers in general. It is against teachers unions, which throw their money and weight around to affect the outcome of elections and make sure their cushy benefits increase, even at the cost of higher taxes. These same unions also fight to the death any change in the status quo, like demanding greater competence, accountability and professionalism from their members. And these unions have no problem leaving tens of thousands of kids without instruction when they engage in strikes, justifying their greed and indifference by claiming it's "for the kids." If teachers unions act like teamsters, why should it be be surprising if people treat them like teamsters?

Greater? How about any?! In New York State, tenure is at three years. once you pass that, there is ZERO accountability. The teacher could commit a felony and not be released from employment. Recently, I believe there was an article of a NYC teacher that they had to pull out of a classroom, but had to give him a six-figure administrative-style job because they couldn't sack him due to tenure rules. It was linked in a previous thread.

With high unemployment and people practically begging for jobs, this is where you have some leverage to go after unions. If they want to strike, let them strike, and bring in replacements that are looking for work.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I've seen no evidence whatsoever of any "backlash against teachers." Even Chris Christie praises teachers right before he lashes into the leaders of teachers' unions.

Teachers' unions do not have their members' best interests at heart. They care only about the well-being of union leaders.

If I won a mega-millions Powerball jackpot, one thing I'd be tempted to do is start up an alternative union for teachers, that would advocate for policies that actually do benefit teachers who care about the quality of their professional work.

One thing to understand, though, is that aside from a union representative, the steward and other local executives are made up of the teachers themselves (at least that's the case in the union where I am familiar). An alternate union would not help, because it'd end up being more of the same. What you really need is some accountability in the classroom. I'd see no issue with nominating a steward to defend an accused party and have the Board of Education be the jury, but you need to have some sort of accountability.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

No backlash?

In Wisconsin teachers had their pay cut dramatically and people relished it. I've seen that first hand as I have relatives in Wisconsin and the conversations I've had with them along with the letters to the editor I've seen in their newspapers verifies my assessment. People were hell bent to drag teachers down to their private sector level. IMO not realizing that teachers benefits were by proxy raising everyone's standard of living through competition in the marketplace of jobs. Where teaching could be a second profession for me down the road, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole now.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Too much bellyaching over teachers unions. Teachers unions are made up of teachers. You can't be anti-union but pro-teacher. That makes no sense.

Now before some righty's head explodes, I'm not saying teacher's unions are 100% in the right, but their job is to advocate for their members. No different than the players union in baseball or the union that represents your local police force.

For example I think Flagg brought up teachers getting paid to sit around after they'd been pulled out of the classroom in NYC. What he failed to mention is this happens because a student has launched a complaint (inappropriate contact lets say) but the investigation is either on going or stalled because the student isn't cooperating. In a non-unionized world, any time some little brat who didn't like his or her test score claimed the teacher molested them, they'd be immediately fired with no recourse if the allegation was never proven. That's why they and many other workers need an organization to back them up.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

No backlash?

In Wisconsin teachers had their pay cut dramatically and people relished it. I've seen that first hand as I have relatives in Wisconsin and the conversations I've had with them along with the letters to the editor I've seen in their newspapers verifies my assessment. People were hell bent to drag teachers down to their private sector level. IMO not realizing that teachers benefits were by proxy raising everyone's standard of living through competition in the marketplace of jobs. Where teaching could be a second profession for me down the road, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole now.

Then why do people send their children to private, parochial, or charter schools? Those places have teachers "dragged down to the private sector level"...

 

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Too much bellyaching over teachers unions. Teachers unions are made up of teachers. You can't be anti-union but pro-teacher. That makes no sense.

Now before some righty's head explodes, I'm not saying teacher's unions are 100% in the right, but their job is to advocate for their members. No different than the players union in baseball or the union that represents your local police force.

For example I think Flagg brought up teachers getting paid to sit around after they'd been pulled out of the classroom in NYC. What he failed to mention is this happens because a student has launched a complaint (inappropriate contact lets say) but the investigation is either on going or stalled because the student isn't cooperating. In a non-unionized world, any time some little brat who didn't like his or her test score claimed the teacher molested them, they'd be immediately fired with no recourse if the allegation was never proven. That's why they and many other workers need an organization to back them up.

Rover

If they were just advocating for the teachers, fine. But should unions dump millions of member dues into political campaigns? Yes, I know Citizens United said it was right and proper, but should that money be redirected to better (teacher improvement) efforts??

A good teacher should be well rewarded. A bad teacher (and test scores are not THE measuring stick) should be improved or let go.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Oh and welcome back Pio!

OK, so the rich share some responsibility. That doesn't relieve those not within that category of responsibility. I've already mentioned several times where I'm going with that, so there's no need to wear out the keyboard.

Those who are not rich are currently shouldering responsibility...so are the working rich.

Its those who are sitting around doing nothing...while their money makes money...who need to catch up.

Sure, the government buys a lot. At least we can agree that they have a limited number of resources. Perhaps, then, it's time for the government to respect the recession and fall back? Instead of trying to spend our way out of problems, perhaps it's best to stop over-spending and redirect capital towards something else. It's just like any failed business idea. Eventually, you figure out that the best course of action is to throw in the towel and try another route. There's no need to go all in if you don't have to. I don't know if the USA is past the point of no return, but perhaps it's time to salvage something instead of heading into 500 years of Great Depression, a la the Middle Ages.

Point is not that most everything the government does is 'bad'. Nobody is saying that there are not significant opportunities to cut govt. Some refuse to increase govt revenues.

Are you willing to become competitive in the productivity/wage competition? If not, it should be no surprise that no one wants to be here. We're well beyond the point of understanding the problem. You've already placed the problems on the table. There's no need to shove it down our throat any longer, so let's come up with a solution. However, you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either we look to remove artificial price controls in order to compete, or we throw in the towel when it comes to manufacturing and look to excel somewhere else. It'd be like asking an army to knock down the walls to a city with their fist while flat out refusing to develop even a sledgehammer. They come with cannons almost like The Charge of the Light Brigade (Joseph Marcell impersonations welcome) and take down your wall as if it were tissue paper.

If I understand your point...youre asking what is the solution.

We need to let the US goes after what its good at. Continue to go after creativity and entrepreurial business creation...and probably watch manufacturing jobs continue to go away. This creates internet companies, etc and big wealth for said handful of entrprenuers. Then we need to get the many 'laborers' losing their jobs to the overseas shift skilled at the new economy. This is the critical role govt plays. If we just cut all govt rather than unproductive parts of govt...the now struggling 'labor class' can't get retooled for the new economy. The problem is that the GOP and the right often doesn't see this.

Also, you said that the economy does not tank because of one guy in the White House, yet economies go into the tank when a G-O-Pig is in the White House. Because you've been fairly attentive in hearing all sides of the story (heck, I haven't put you on ignore, unlike a few other muppets), I'll give you a chance to think that over and re-phrase it.

I wouldn't blame Reagan/Bush I for the long '88-'94 recession. There are natural recessions. I do believe that the 2008 crisis was more harsh due to poor regulation decisions. So again...there can be exceptions to the limited influence govt plays in developing recessions.

Having said that, W did and Obama are now facing increasingly severe structural challenges to the economy.

Don't you want to have the best and brightest teaching your children? You don't attract the best and brightest with ****ty pay.

The country's top priority.

 

[unofan]

Then why do people send their children to private, parochial, or charter schools? Those places have teachers "dragged down to the private sector level"...

There's a variety of reasons, from location to a desire for a specific curriculum, such as religious classes. The largest, i suspect, has to do with the other students, not teaching quality. Public schools have to take everyone whether they want to learn or not. Private schools have more disciplinary freedom.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Call Detroit. Tell them bullthit!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/05/detroit-councilwoman-to-obama-voted-for-now-bail-us-out/

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

There's a variety of reasons, from location to a desire for a specific curriculum, such as religious classes. The largest, i suspect, has to do with the other students, not teaching quality. Public schools have to take everyone whether they want to learn or not. Private schools have more disciplinary freedom.

Funny thing is, my folks sent me to a parochial school for a few years because of teaching quality. I have other friends who saw the exact same thing. I'm not trying to say we're the norm, but I'd take a serious look at it.

 

[Rover]

Rover

If they were just advocating for the teachers, fine. But should unions dump millions of member dues into political campaigns? Yes, I know Citizens United said it was right and proper, but should that money be redirected to better (teacher improvement) efforts??

A good teacher should be well rewarded. A bad teacher (and test scores are not THE measuring stick) should be improved or let go.

In a perfect world, neither they nor corporations would be spending millions on political campaigns. Sadly as this past election has proven, you do yourself no good by unilateraly disarming. I don't like it either, but that's the current situation unfortunately.

I'm all for booting bad teachers, of which I had my share over 12 years of public school. The problem I have is the criteria used to send them packing. For example, a lot of people want to compare private school vs public school to make a point, which I find to be ridiculous. Private schools only have to take the kids they want, and presumably have more parent involvement since they're paying the tuition. Public schools have to take everybody, even the kids counting down until their 16th birthday when they can drop out.

Next there's an emphasis on improving test scores, which is all well and good except for when you consider new students entering the system for which English is not their primary language. Those kids will bring down your test scores and that's not the fault of the teacher.

So unfortunately I don't have a lot of good answers on this one. Perhaps you could provide bonuses on a schoolwide basis and then let the principal/headmaster distribute them.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

He met with who?? File under you got to be kidding me...

Ann Coulter ‏@AnnCoulter
Obama met w/ Al Sharpton 2 discuss tax increases. Now if he can get Sharpton 2 just pay his taxes he's got something.-http://bit.ly/VDIiPs

Then again, he's qualified for a cabinet position...

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Those who are not rich are currently shouldering responsibility...so are the working rich.

Its those who are sitting around doing nothing...while their money makes money...who need to catch up.

Be careful with this... when I first read it, it seemed as if you want to steal from rich because they have stockpiles that were already taxed (and we'll assume for the sake of argument that taxes were paid on them). That's where you run into the issue of people not wanting to gain capital because they'll be harassed for having it. There's nothing wrong with having money and being an investor. I would think it'd be a better idea, if there's a small business owner that happens to meet one of these whales, to pitch an idea for investment, that way it benefits all parties concerned.

Point is not that most everything the government does is 'bad'. Nobody is saying that there are not significant opportunities to cut govt. Some refuse to increase govt revenues.

At this point, I think we both need to accept a stalemate. Those that are against increasing revenue, as well as debt limits, are concerned that they're basically signing a permission slip to allow the spending of more money. As I mentioned before, a very short time (I believe I exaggerated it to 20 minutes) after the debt ceiling was raised, Obama immediately signed on for more spending. That is the sort of thing that needs to be addressed. Taxmageddon does it. I understand it's harsh, but it's time for the country to fiscally grow up.

If I understand your point...youre asking what is the solution.

We need to let the US goes after what its good at. Continue to go after creativity and entrepreurial business creation...and probably watch manufacturing jobs continue to go away. This creates internet companies, etc and big wealth for said handful of entrprenuers. Then we need to get the many 'laborers' losing their jobs to the overseas shift skilled at the new economy. This is the critical role govt plays. If we just cut all govt rather than unproductive parts of govt...the now struggling 'labor class' can't get retooled for the new economy. The problem is that the GOP and the right often doesn't see this.

The biggest problem is that a significant number of these things are not being well targeted, and results in a bunch of wasted money and handouts. If we're going to be spending government dollars to give people an opportunity to re-tool skills, we should do it with the end goal of making money off the person (in the form of collected taxes, of course). Personally, I think those sorts of loans should be merit- and plan-based instead of solely need-based, like it is for private scholarships. As a taxpayer, I'd MUCH rather see my tax dollars go towards a comp sci or engineering scholarship than a music scholarship, because I know that there's a better chance that that person will be footing a tax bill and could potentially go towards reducing my burden in the future.

 

[Rover]

He met with who?? File under you got to be kidding me...

Ann Coulter ‏@AnnCoulter
Obama met w/ Al Sharpton 2 discuss tax increases. Now if he can get Sharpton 2 just pay his taxes he's got something.-http://bit.ly/VDIiPs

Then again, he's qualified for a cabinet position...

I'm not sure I'd be quoting Ann Coulter tweets if I were you. She gets paid to make a fool of herself. Unless you're also being compensated, might want to triple verify the info first.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

Those that are against increasing revenue, as well as debt limits, are concerned that they're basically signing a permission slip to allow the spending of more money.

Sorry, this argument doesn't fly. Given the debt and the deficit we've already spent the money. I've said it a thousand times before I'll say it again. Cut something legitimately that isn't funded through it's own tax (payroll taxes) and we can talk. Until then you're just raiding from Social Security and Medicare to pay for stuff that nobody wanted in the first place.

That's why Democrats start with defense and Republicans start with entitlements. What Republicans fail to acknowledge is that they raided Social Security and Medicare to pay for other things (Prescription Drugs, NCLB, Wars including the Cold War) etc. because they refused to raise taxes to pay for those things. Now they want to use that regressive tax to continue to pay for that **** instead of paying for it through income taxes which is where it should have come from in the first place.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election - The Day after the Aftermath...

I'm not sure I'd be quoting Ann Coulter tweets if I were you. She gets paid to make a fool of herself. Unless you're also being compensated, might want to triple verify the info first.

What else do you expect from the Big Red ones?

 

[Rover]

What else do you expect from the Big Red ones?

That's right, she IS a Cornell grad. Has she ever been the Commencement speaker???