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2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I'm not a conservative and I have grave concerns over a nuclear Iran.

I'm not saying that I'm ready to invade, but we better stay ahead of this situation. I'd have zero problem with us dropping several bunker-busters in there tomorrow - **** the torpedos. The world would get over it soon enough.
The Saudis (don't we give them about $1B a year in military equipment?) or Egypt ($1B a year) or even the Israelies ($1B a year plus half our political system held hostage to them) can do it. We're done being the world's cop. All it did was make us broke and hated. If it's a worthwhile project then it's worthwhile for them. If it's not worthwhile for them then it sure as hell isn't for us.

I would write on the lintels of the door-post, "Enough is enough."
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Mitt Romney.

Why not provide a source for that assertion? Other, of course, than your well developed libstain imagination.

The ladies in the chorale may buy this eyewash about you not being in the bag for His Ineptness. But to give it just the teensiest bit of credibility, why not point to any post where you've ever even hinted that His Racistness is anything other than the greatest thing since sliced bread?
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

The Saudis (don't we give them about $1B a year in military equipment?) or Egypt ($1B a year) or even the Israelies ($1B a year plus half our political system held hostage to them) can do it. We're done being the world's cop. All it did was make us broke and hated. If it's a worthwhile project then it's worthwhile for them. If it's not worthwhile for them then it sure as hell isn't for us.

I would write on the lintels of the door-post, "Enough is enough."

Jeanette Rankin, come on down! You're as full of sh*t as a Christmas goose. And possessed of seemingly limitless ignorance.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

The Saudis (don't we give them about $1B a year in military equipment?) or Egypt ($1B a year) or even the Israelies ($1B a year plus half our political system held hostage to them) can do it. We're done being the world's cop. All it did was make us broke and hated. If it's a worthwhile project then it's worthwhile for them. If it's not worthwhile for them then it sure as hell isn't for us.

I would write on the lintels of the door-post, "Enough is enough."


It has little to do with being the world's cop. It has everything to do with not letting nukes get into any more of the wrong hands than there already are.

I'm not real worried about Israel. I believe they can stand up for themselves. I'm worried about Iran having a nuke to hold over the Strait of Hormuz or a nuke that could get into terrorist hands.

We can more than handle Iran conventionally so their saber rattling is comical right up until they have a nuke.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I think they could for a short period of time. It's a very narrow passage and they wouldn't need to control a long section of it, just a few hundred meters. It wouldn't even take that many mines to scare the commercial vessels from traveling the strait for a long while. They could toss out the mines at night, move a few ships into position, and they're done. There would be a week to a month's worth of talks, and then someone would attack their forces. It wouldn't necessarily be the US either.


This is just a hunch on my part, but I'm thinking that we, along with the rest of the world, are keeping a pretty good eye on the Strait and would know what they were up to in plenty of time to stop it.

Seriously, Iran without a nuke is like Old Pio without his Cialis. :D


Couldn't resist...
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

It has little to do with being the world's cop. It has everything to do with not letting nukes get into any more of the wrong hands than there already are.

I'm not real worried about Israel. I believe they can stand up for themselves. I'm worried about Iran having a nuke to hold over the Strait of Hormuz or a nuke that could get into terrorist hands.

We can more than handle Iran conventionally so their saber rattling is comical right up until they have a nuke.

We have 30,000 pound bunker busters and stealth bombers to deliver them. Nobody else does.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

It has little to do with being the world's cop. It has everything to do with not letting nukes get into any more of the wrong hands than there already are.

I'm not real worried about Israel. I believe they can stand up for themselves. I'm worried about Iran having a nuke to hold over the Strait of Hormuz or a nuke that could get into terrorist hands.

We can more than handle Iran conventionally so their saber rattling is comical right up until they have a nuke.

I understand all that. The real question is what you want the US to do about it. If I could throw a switch and have Iran magically stop ever attaining nukes without deeply damaging US interests, sure, I'd do it. But do you launch a unilateral, unprovoked attack on a (ostensibly) popularly-elected government not for anything they are doing but for what you are afraid they will do? That level of global intrusiveness is well beyond anything we've done up til now. Since the big beef we have with Iran is they are aggressively fundamentalist Islamic, it is about as close as there is to a genuine declaration of "War of Civilizations." It's the equivalent of them launching a pre-emptive attack on us in fact. We are far more of an existential threat to them than they to us.

We are also debating the aim as if there is no problem achieving it and no blowback afterwards. I have to ask, did Iraq teach us nothing? Murphy's Law seems to be optimistic when it comes to the results of wars of choice.

We obviously "can" do this -- nobody can stop us. We "can" do anything, we can take out the PRC tomorrow if we want. There will always be dangerous states. There will always be good reasons for wanting them to disappear. There will always be people lurking to say "how could you not have acted!" if you don't act and anything happens. The world has sharp edges. How far are you willing to go, and how much damage are you willing to do to try to address perceived threats? Most importantly, are you willing to leave us poorer, weaker and isolated in the post-war world? Because history never ends.

I don't mean any of these questions as rhetorical. We need to have a very adult national discussion about it, but all I see from the right is the usual "anybody who doesn't agree with what I happen to think right this moment is a coward / traitor / blah blah blah" that they've always done. We made the mistake of being browbeaten by them once for purely domestic political purposes, and that turned out to be a disaster for the country. We need to show a little more backbone this time.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I understand all that. The real question is what you want the US to do about it. If I could throw a switch and have Iran magically stop having nukes forever without deeply damaging US interests, sure, I'd do it. But do you launch a unilateral, unprovoked attack on a (ostensibly) popularly-elected government not for anything they are doing but for what you are afraid they will do? That level of global intrusiveness is well beyond anything we've done up til now. Since the big beef we have with Iran is they are aggressively fundamentalist Islamic, it is about as close as there is to a genuine declaration of "War of Civilizations." It's the equivalent of them launching a pre-emptive attack on us in fact. We are far more of an existential threat to them than they to us.

We are also debating the aim as if there is no problem achieving it and no blowback afterwards. I have to ask, did Iraq teach us nothing? Murhpy's Law seems to be optimistic when it comes to the results of wars of choice.

We obviously "can" do this -- nobody can stop us. We "can" do anything, we can take out the PRC tomorrow if we want. There will always be dangerous states. There will always be good reasons for wanting them to disappear. There will always be people lurking to say "how could you not have acted!" if anything happens after the fact. The world has sharp edges. How far are you willing to go?

I don't mean any of these questions as rhetorical. We need to have a very adult national discussion about it, but all I see from the right is the usual "anybody who doesn't agree with what I happen to think right this moment is a coward / traitor / blah blah blah" that they've always done. We made the mistake of being browbeaten by them once for purely domestic political purposes, and that turned out to be a disaster for the country. We need to show a little more backbone this time.

Nobody's accused you of being either a coward or a traitor. "Useful idiot," however, is another matter. Naturally, only you are taking the long view here. Only you have the wisdom to see what the real issues are. It's all these dreaded Neocons (many of whom are Jews, you know). And it's always useful to dust off the moral equivalency argument, isn't it? We're really not so much better than they are. And who is going to lead this "adult" debate? A president who says "the future must not belong to those who blaspheme the prophet of Islam?" That president?

They have threatened, repeatedly, to destroy Israel. And they are rapidly gaining the capability to do just that. And we should wait? Until what? Until it's too late? Is that your solution? In the alternative, we could write a strongly worded letter to the NYT. That ought to show 'em.

Maybe we could have a conference in Europe. There's a hall available in Munich.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

You mean like the black "churches" that served as the backdrop for presidential campaigns by JJsr and Sharpton? Were their pastors "hacks" too? Or are you referring only to "churches" that don't support His Smarmyness? Let me guess.

Libstain intolerance coupled with professional grade pomposity equals. . .you.
What was that about a wayback machine? :D
 
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Iran is going to get a nuclear weapon at some point. I'm sure spending a few trillion and thousands of lives, could delay it a bit, but eventually the only thing that will deter them is MAD.

Romney is setting up Obama for future Foreign Policy debates. Obama will try to pin the idiocy of the Bush/Cheney FP on Mitt, then Mitt will calmly deny the stupid parts and explain that he would do it better.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Iran is going to get a nuclear weapon at some point. I'm sure spending a few trillion and thousands of lives, could delay it a bit, but eventually the only thing that will deter them is MAD.

Romney is setting up Obama for future Foreign Policy debates. Obama will try to pin the idiocy of the Bush/Cheney FP on Mitt, then Mitt will calmly deny the stupid parts and explain that he would do it better.

A few billiion dollars, perhaps. A few trillion? Wildly off the mark. Much more damaging for His Islamistness, IMO, will be the continuing revelations about administration dithering and lying about the murders in Benghazi. Especially Hillary's lie about the mob "taking Ambassador Stevens to the hospital (yeah, with his pants down)" From the grave, Stevens' communiques may drive a stake through the heart of His Weakduckness' candidacy.
 
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A few billiion dollars, perhaps. A few trillion? Wildly off the mark. Much more damaging for His Islamistness, IMO, will be the continuing revelations about administration dithering and lying about the murders in Benghazi. Especially Hillary's lie about the mob "taking Ambassador Stevens to the hospital (yeah, with his pants down)" From the grave, Stevens' communiques may drive a stake through the heart of His Weakduckness' candidacy.

Are you saying you've read Stiglitz and find him full of BS? How about these guys?

http://costsofwar.org/article/economic-cost-summary

Or is it simply worth it?

Mitt certainly has a good chance if he can remain calm, but committing to Bush/Cheney instead of minor lean towards Ron Paul just sucks. The nice thing about Mitt is that we really have no clue how he'd run the country if elected.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Are you saying you've read Stiglitz and find him full of BS? How about these guys?

http://costsofwar.org/article/economic-cost-summary

Or is it simply worth it?

Mitt certainly has a good chance if he can remain calm, but committing to Bush/Cheney instead of minor lean towards Ron Paul just sucks. The nice thing about Mitt is that we really have no clue how he'd run the country if elected.

Anyone who claims an operation to retard or destroy Iran's nuclear program will cost trillions is also wildly off the mark. And I don't care if he had a continuing role on "Law and Order" or not. Stiglitz wrote about the hidden costs of the Iraq war, not a proposed operation to declaw Iran. Nobody is suggesting invasion or occupation of Iran, well other than Scooby (and, evidently, you), and he's hardly a reliable source.

Stop living in the past. His Ineptness has been president for four years, presiding over our foreign policy. That's where the focus rightly belongs. That, and on the future. Besides, the indisputable truth is that His Islamistness has adopted many of Bush's policies. Whatever happened to closing Gitmo, for example? We never know exactly how any president will govern. FDR never mentoned the "New Deal" during the '32 campaign.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

It has little to do with being the world's cop. It has everything to do with not letting nukes get into any more of the wrong hands than there already are.

I'm not real worried about Israel. I believe they can stand up for themselves. I'm worried about Iran having a nuke to hold over the Strait of Hormuz or a nuke that could get into terrorist hands.

We can more than handle Iran conventionally so their saber rattling is comical right up until they have a nuke.

Not sure what you're advocating...cause I haven' had time to back read...so this is not directed at you...but...

As Kep alluded to...dropping a bunch of bombs on Iran with the plan of taking out their nuke program is full of more problems than it in all probability solves.

Look at our nuclear intelligence in Iraq. How'd we do? Not only did we not pinpoint their program...we actually thought they had a program. How bad is that intel? What makes us think we know exactly where there program is? So we just bomb a bunch of fields hoping to hit facilities?

Likewise we can expect mult generational backlash from at least the Arab world and in some cases more. I think Americans would feel the same if the Arabs came over and started bombing places to take out our nuclear capability. See what happened after 9/11? We invaded two countries. Many don't care about multi generational backlash from the Arabs...others probably welcome it as it furthers the re armament strategy that heightens tensions everywhere just for the heck of it. Its an ongoing goal for neocons as is it makes them relevant again. All this with little likelihood of doing anything based on lack of intel.

Administration after administration has played this correctly. Put as much international pressure to bear on the situation as you can. That's not to say Romney would be as smart or as straight as every other administration.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Not sure what you're advocating...cause I haven' had time to back read...so this is not directed at you...but...

As Kep alluded to...dropping a bunch of bombs on Iran with the plan of taking out their nuke program is full of more problems than it in all probability solves.

Look at our nuclear intelligence in Iraq. How'd we do? Not only did we not pinpoint their program...


I'll admit it. I'm a liberal (mainly) who's hawkish on foreign policy.

I'm advocating that we do whatever we can to prevent Iran from getting a nuke. I don't believe that it would take an invasion to accomplish this, so I am not advocating an invasion.

Imo, the risk/reward situation is such that the risk of Iran getting a nuke is greater than the reward of the Arab world hating us slightly less (until the next ginned up reason - home movies about Mohammed anyone?) coz we don't take it out.

I don't understand the ongoing concern about what the Arab street, er, dirt path, thinks about America. I don't believe that they will ever stop hating us no matter what we do. It's in their governments' and religious leaders' best interest to foster hate towards us and I don't see that ever changing - or at least not for a couple of more generations.

I'm pretty sure that we know EXACTLY where Iran's facilities are:

Natanz-092002_zpsf6d1d3f0.jpg
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Stop living in the past. His Ineptness has been president for four years, presiding over our foreign policy. That's where the focus rightly belongs. That, and on the future. Besides, the indisputable truth is that His Islamistness has adopted many of Bush's policies. Whatever happened to closing Gitmo, for example? We never know exactly how any president will govern. FDR never mentoned the "New Deal" during the '32 campaign.

Isn't foreign policy probably one of the hardest things to predict how a president will govern? Or to some extent, even to have a truly valid opinion on? Just imagine what the president must learn on day one about U.S. Intelligence, that he never knew of as a candidate....
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Isn't foreign policy probably one of the hardest things to predict how a president will govern? Or to some extent, even to have a truly valid opinion on? Just imagine what the president must learn on day one about U.S. Intelligence, that he never knew of as a candidate....

The president's personal views and philosophy rarely matter anymore. What matters is the advisors he is surrounded by. Romney's people are from the Neoconservative school: aggressive, Utopian idealists who believe the US can batter the world into a Pax Americana. Obama's people are traditional conservative Realists: cut deals with power centers and protect US interests.
 
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