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2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Of course he changed his positions. His own advisor was the one that made the "Etch-A-Sketch" snark. And it will work if Obama is going to sit their passively and let him do it.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

My dad is (was) a chemical engineer.
I'm always amazed by people who can believe in cause-and-effect (at least statistically) even down to the molecular and even sub-atomic level, but then turn around and swear that an invisible man in the sky is actually running things...
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

well, it was fun to *almost* approach reasonable conversation, before it went down the tubes again. :rolleyes:

What I mean is, I wouldn't think it necessary to point out for the umpteenth time, that religion is not defensible by science, just as science is not dependent on religion. They are different ways of considering perceptions of reality.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I'm always amazed by people who can believe in cause-and-effect (at least statistically) even down to the molecular and even sub-atomic level, but then turn around and swear that an invisible man in the sky is actually running things...

:confused:

Are you referring to Rupert Murdoch as the "man in the sky?" ;)


I wasn't referencing religion when speaking of my dad or dittohead friend. I was referring to the lack of critical thinking in otherwise smart & educated adults.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Yeah, but the slimeballs are right. He lied during the debate. He changed just about every position he's taking during the campaign. He even changed his tax plan which was the center piece of everything he was running on. And for that matter it's not just the slimeballs that are calling him out on his flip-flops.

More bad news for Romney.

Isn't it ironic how that number magically drops almost a whole point? I wonder what got baked into it now. It certainly can't include the able workforce that is underemployed or fell off the rolls when they could not find work over an extended period.

I don't want to hear anything about "lieing"either, considering all politicians angle their way in and out of arguments or drum up their own facts about their opponents.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Fishy I'm sorry but Romney's "explanation" is warmed over supply side garbage. No, you don't pay for upper income tax cuts with some mythical economic growth. It just doesn't happen. Want proof? We tried that in the 80's and exploded the deficit, while the job growth was due to a stimulus program (defense spending) that mysteriously halted when defense spending got cut at the end of the decade. Next the Bush years gave us another massive upper income tax cut, only this time with no stimulus behind it, and there was no job growth. This approach is false, and Obama needs to directly confront not only Romney but Republican/conservative orthodoxy on this issue ala Clinton's convention speech. Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

On another topic, as expected GOP pollsters (We Ask America and Rasmussen) swooped in immediately to show Romney UP in FL and OH! Problem is they maybe should have waited a couple of days to give it some credibility...;)
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I wasn't referencing religion when speaking of my dad or dittohead friend. I was referring to the lack of critical thinking in otherwise smart & educated adults.
You're right - I introduced new evidence during rebuttal. I very frequently observe that what people often substitute for "critical thinking" in those cases is religion. E.g. "Sure, a policy of providing free contraception (cause) would lead to improvements in numerous social metrics (effect), but my god says that sex is bad, so I choose not to think critically about the problem and categorically reject the policy." Blind devotion to a dogma certainly isn't always about religion - but it often is.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

He always starts it. :)

This same guy once told me "Of course you like McCain - he's a liberal."

Christ, I think we know the same guy.

The most atrocious thing about That Guy is he doesn't even know the history of his own movement. 9 out of 10 Americans who call themselves "conservative" have never heard of Robert Taft or Russell Kirk, don't know the difference between Neoconservatives and Paleoconservatives, and have only heard the name "Edmund Burke" without knowing any of his ideas (and forget about actually having read any of his writings). My friend thinks "Libertarian" and "Liberal" mean the same thing.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I don't want to hear anything about "lieing"either, considering all politicians angle their way in and out of arguments or drum up their own facts about their opponents.

I didn't hear Obama misrepresenting his positions during the debate. That's all Romney did. He even said during the debate that his medical plan covers pre-existing conditions. Then his campaign after the debate issued a statement saying, no it doesn't.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

You're right - I introduced new evidence during rebuttal. I very frequently observe that what people often substitute for "critical thinking" in those cases is religion. E.g. "Sure, a policy of providing free contraception (cause) would lead to improvements in numerous social metrics (effect), but my god says that sex is bad, so I choose not to think critically about the problem and categorically reject the policy." Blind devotion to a dogma certainly isn't always about religion - but it often is.

"The virtue of using evidence is precisely that we can come to an agreement about it. But if you listen to two people who are arguing about something, and they each of them have passionate faith that they're right, but they believe different things -- they belong to different religions, different faiths, there is nothing they can do to settle their disagreement short of shooting each other, which is what they very often actually do." -- Richard Dawkins

Still, that in itself doesn't bug me -- a certain segment of the population needs to ground their thought in Absolutes or they can't function because of existential anxiety. Fine -- I personally need to believe that Fred Wilpon will endure an eternity of torment, so I get that. What torques me up is when believers (by whom I mean those who are "sure" -- either way) have applied a patina of pseudo-intellectual "logic" to justify their belief. So you get a lot of ankle-deep glosses on C. S. Lewis' polemics or Chesterton zingers or twisted Medieval apologetics (with no understanding of where they come from or what their historical context was). I've heard every one of these stupid fallacies (they include "arguments" both for and against Belief) numerous times, each time spouted as if it was an "open and shut case."
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I didn't hear Obama misrepresenting his positions during the debate. That's all Romney did.
That made the debate surreal. Did Romney not understand there is a public record of him saying exactly the opposite of nearly everything he said during the debate? Did he just count on it not mattering? Well, here we all are saying that Romney "won" the debate on the optics because he looked and sounded confident -- so maybe he was right.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

You're right - I introduced new evidence during rebuttal. I very frequently observe that what people often substitute for "critical thinking" in those cases is religion. E.g. "Sure, a policy of providing free contraception (cause) would lead to improvements in numerous social metrics (effect), but my god says that sex is bad, so I choose not to think critically about the problem and categorically reject the policy." Blind devotion to a dogma certainly isn't always about religion - but it often is.

In these cases, it's not. My family and most of my friends aren't overly (or at all) religious and those who are, aren't dogmatic in their approach to it.

I live in heathen Madison don't ya know! :eek:

I'm referring to Fox or Rush (or insert any conservative "news" source that they are listening to) being their only frame of reference. In buying that Fox and/or Rush are the only ones telling the truth and that ALL of the other media outlets are part of a liberal agenda.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

I'm referring to Fox or Rush (or insert any conservative "news" source that they are listening to) being their only frame of reference. In buying that Fox and/or Rush are the only ones telling the truth and that ALL of the other media outlets are part of a liberal agenda.
Wait, I thought you said it wasn't about religion... ;)
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

That made the debate surreal. Did Romney not understand there is a public record of him saying exactly the opposite of nearly everything he said during the debate? Did he just count on it not mattering?

What this only means is that Romney's a much better politician than we thought. :p Of course it doesn't matter to some gun-totin' union member in Ohio if he changed his positions. What matters is how much confidence he instills today in his ability to "make things better." Right?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

What this only means is that Romney's a much better politician than we thought. :p Of course it doesn't matter to some gun-totin' union member in Ohio if he changed his positions. What matters is how much confidence he instills today in his ability to "make things better." Right?

Hey, I don't think anybody should underestimate Mittens' chameleon properties. :D

Unfortunately (for him), it looks like he just can't buy (so to speak) a break. Monthly jobs report shows unemployment has dropped to 7.8%. Good night, sweetheart, it's time to go. :p

The reported payrolls growth figure for September, 114,000 jobs, was incredibly close to consensus forecasts of about 115,000 jobs added. But everything else about the report considerably beat expectations. Jobs figures were revised upward by 40,000 in July, and by 46,000 in August. Combined with the jobs growth in September, that means the economy added 200,000 more jobs than we thought previously.

The unemployment rate is calculated through a separate survey — one of households rather than business establishments. The data from the household survey tends to be even noisier than that from the establishment survey.

But unlike last month, when a decline in the unemployment rate was caused by the exit of workers from the labor force, the household survey also reflected genuinely good news in September. According to that survey, 413,000 workers joined the labor force in September. But 873,000 more people became employed, causing the unemployment rate to fall to 7.8 percent.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

Of course he changed his positions.


um, in other contexts, don't we call that "learning from experience?" ;)

Romney's background is in business and an important part of his formative years were spent at a consulting firm. Guess what, guys, in order for consulting firms to do their job, they first have to have clients. in order to have clients, you need to close a deal; and in order to close a deal, you have to engage in salesmanship. Romney is doing the same thing now; he's trying to close a deal to bring management consultant expertise to bear on the federal government, and so he is adjusting his sales pitch based on feedback from the potential client. The client is telling him what it wants from the consultant and so the prospective consultant is telling the client, sure, we can do that.

It's not dishonest, it's not lying. Now, I can easily understand how people would dislike that, and the term "flip-flop" could well apply. there is a big difference between saying he changes his position and saying he is lying. he can be truthful in what he says about each one of the positions, and for him not to adjust in response to feedback from his potential client would make him ideologically rigid and subject to a whole host of complaints along those lines. Who are we kidding here? Partisans are going to be partisan no matter what.

By adjusting his positions, Romney is trying to give people reasons to vote for him, it at least demonstrates he's listening, no? ;) When I look at the preponderance of all the Democrat advertising, it is really very harsh if not outright dishonest; at least here where I live, the Republican advertising is "only" about 60% negative about the other, 40% positive about themselves.

I'd prefer people just say I don't like him or I don't trust him or I think Obama would do a better job or whatever. There's no reason to go to the level of viciousness and bile that I suspect is about to be unleashed except a twisted sense of entitlement fueled by desperation.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part III: October Surprise!

um, in other contexts, don't we call that "learning from experience?" ;)

Romney's background is in business and an important part of his formative years were spent at a consulting firm. Guess what, guys, in order for consulting firms to do their job, they first have to have clients. in order to have clients, you need to close a deal; and in order to close a deal, you have to engage in salesmanship. Romney is doing the same thing now; he's trying to close a deal to bring management consultant expertise to bear on the federal government, and so he is adjusting his sales pitch based on feedback from the potential client. The client is telling him what it wants from the consultant and so the prospective consultant is telling the client, sure, we can do that.

It's not dishonest, it's not lying. Now, I can easily understand how people would dislike that, and the term "flip-flop" could well apply. there is a big difference between saying he changes his position and saying he is lying. he can be truthful in what he says about each one of the positions, and for him not to adjust in response to feedback from his potential client would make him ideologically rigid and subject to a whole host of complaints along those lines. Who are we kidding here? Partisans are going to be partisan no matter what.

By adjusting his positions, Romney is trying to give people reasons to vote for him, it at least demonstrates he's listening, no?

The thing about this though is Romney has not actually changed anything in his plan, he has just changed the wrapping paper. Course correction means the navigator actually changing course, not just reporting a different location to the tower.
 
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