2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vacante

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

What is wrong with the Laffer curve, in terms of actual money raised and people's willingness to pay it? This question is not rhetorical.

The Laffer Curve along with the entire supply side and trickle down theory is a joke. 30 years of it has netted an unmitigated economic disaster at the Federal Level.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Maybe I should be watching conventions! Is is true (as noted in a Detroit News headline) that the Democrats actually booed the Lord God Almighty???

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Maybe I should be watching conventions! Is is true (as noted in a Detroit News headline) that the Democrats actually booed the Lord God Almighty???

No, they booed it's inclusion in the party platform. Personally I tend to agree. There's no reason for God to be in the party platform.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

The long term is adjusting tax rates to the vertex of the Laffer parabola. If you go in the correct direction, you will gain more in aggregate tax money because either more people are willing to get in with a lower rate that they'd have to pay, or you truly are gaining more in revenue by going the other direction. If your present point on the parabola is to the left of the vertex (assuming tax rate increases along the x-axis), then yes, raising taxes would be a smart thing.I don't think we're there, though, which is why you see fiscal conservatives (GOP and Libertarian) calling for decreases in tax rates. If you play around with property tax rates on Sim City, it's the same thing. Sure, it's a video game, but a pretty decent representation of a person's reaction to tax rates.

On what do you base this? Isn't that the crux of the Laffer curve problem -- No one really knows exacly where that optimum point is? I don't know where it's at (or if it even exists), but given the relatively low tax rates (historically), it will take more than supposition to cause me to conclude we're at it, or to the right of it.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

The Laffer Curve along with the entire supply side and trickle down theory is a joke. 30 years of it has netted an unmitigated economic disaster at the Federal Level.

You still haven't answered my question. All you have done is present an argument side that is similar to a 6-year-old presented with a plate of broccoli. I'll ask again: What, in your opinion, are the fundamental issues with the Laffer curve, in terms of money raised and people's willingness to pay?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

You still haven't answered my question. All you have done is present an argument side that is similar to a 6-year-old presented with a plate of broccoli. I'll ask again: What, in your opinion, are the fundamental issues with the Laffer curve, in terms of money raised and people's willingness to pay?

The fundamental issue is that there are many nations on this planet that pay much higher taxes than Americans do. "Willingness To Pay" is a meaningless metric. You either pay or you go to jail. Unfortunately here in America we don't do enough on the enforcement side which allows people like Mitt Romney to hide their cash in the Cayman's and in Switzerland.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Maybe I should be watching conventions! Is is true (as noted in a Detroit News headline) that the Democrats actually booed the Lord God Almighty???

Not quite, but close. Their platform did not contain the word "God" anywhere in it. They wanted to adjust it, which requires a vote of the convention. The chair asked for a vote, and the "nays" outshouted the "ayes", so the chair asked twice more. The third time, he said "the 'ayes' carry" after which the boos started.

The apologists will claim that the boos were about the chair declaring the 'ayes' carry when the 'nays' were louder, that the boos weren't for God herself.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Not quite, but close. Their platform did not contain the word "God" anywhere in it. They wanted to adjust it, which requires a vote of the convention. The chair asked for a vote, and the "nays" outshouted the "ayes", so the chair asked twice more. The third time, he said "the 'ayes' carry" after which the boos started.

The apologists will claim that the boos were about the chair declaring the 'ayes' carry when the 'nays' were louder, that the boos weren't for God herself.

I probably shouldn't be, but I'm mildly surprised this is such a contentious issue that it would cause a ruckus at the big circle jerk. Is Foxton a delegate?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

The apologists will claim that the boos were about the chair declaring the 'ayes' carry when the 'nays' were louder, that the boos weren't for God herself.

Wow.

 

[jmh]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Really? I'd say if the price gas keeps going up he is toast

If the American public have brains, rising gas prices shouldn't motivate them to vote for the candidate whose party platform is that we should stick with the 1950s transportation policies got us into this oil-addicted mess in the first place.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

On what do you base this? Isn't that the crux of the Laffer curve problem -- No one really knows exacly where that optimum point is? I don't know where it's at (or if it even exists), but given the relatively low tax rates (historically), it will take more than supposition to cause me to conclude we're at it, or to the right of it.

In 2003, when taxes were cut, we were certainly to the right, as revenues and receipts, as a percentage of GDP, increased. ( http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/hist.pdf page 25 ). Obviously the credit crash of 2008 did change matters, and the curve itself moved. One thing that is true, from the same link, is that receipts as a percentage of GDP are down, yet outlays as a percentage of GDP are up. To get an idea, as of 2011, the US GDP is $15.09T, so approximately a 9% deficit is about right. One other factor to include is QE1 and QE2, as those would also move the curve since wages remained nominally stagnant.

Personally, I think the one thing that actually needs to be done is to raise Federal Funds rates. That is one area where we are most certainly to the left of the curve. There's plenty of demand for cash, but no one wants to give it out because there's no return incentive. This is another big difference between 1996 and 2012. Sadly, I cannot find record of federal funds rates (if any) during the Great Depression, but it would not surprise me if they were as low as they are now, and that the banks during the Roosevelt administration decide to raise it. The biggest difference between then and now, though, is that we have a fiat currency, and so the money supply does change.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

If the American public have brains, rising gas prices shouldn't motivate them to vote for the candidate whose party platform is that we should stick with the 1950s transportation policies got us into this oil-addicted mess in the first place.

I don't think I understand what you are saying....if gasoline prices keep increasing, are you saying voters will opt for the person who is against drilling for oil and gas and who blocked a pipeline from oil producers to refineries?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

The fundamental issue is that there are many nations on this planet that pay much higher taxes than Americans do. "Willingness To Pay" is a meaningless metric. You either pay or you go to jail. Unfortunately here in America we don't do enough on the enforcement side which allows people like Mitt Romney to hide their cash in the Cayman's and in Switzerland.

Right, all 0 countries that have a higher corporate tax rate. Also, "willingness to pay" is not meaningless, because you can move to another country. Look at how the rich are looking to flee France because of the incredibly high rate on the highest earners. Look at how people are leaving New York State in droves due to high state taxes.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

I don't think I understand what you are saying....if gasoline prices keep increasing, are you saying voters will opt for the person who is against drilling for oil and gas and who blocked a pipeline from oil producers to refineries?

Then why is domestic oil and gas production at an all time high?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

If the American public have brains, rising gas prices shouldn't motivate them to vote for the candidate whose party platform is that we should stick with the 1950s transportation policies got us into this oil-addicted mess in the first place.

If the American public have brains, they'll understand why gas prices have risen in relation to the various oil prices, not to mention the difference between the prices (WTI and Brent), and how the incumbent's environmental policies are not allowing the country to do anything with the resources it has, thereby making the product worthless on the market, compared to the product of worth where the American public pays an arm and a leg.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Then why is domestic oil and gas production at an all time high?

It's because of the heroic efforts of the oil companies, Republican governors, and Republican ex-presidents who have all sacrificed their personal comforts and have given of their vast talents to deliver gas to the common people even in the face of the ineffectual, shrill, flailing resistance of our commie president.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Then why is domestic oil and gas production at an all time high?

Natural gas production is at an all-time high because of fracking. You already knew that. Are you trying to imply that Obama somehow had something to do with it?

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

It's because of the heroic efforts of the oil companies, Republican governors, and Republican ex-presidents who have all sacrificed their personal comforts and have given of their vast talents to deliver gas to the common people even in the face of the ineffectual, shrill, flailing resistance of our commie president.

The Republicans are certainly full of natural gas.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Down goes Pennsylvania.

So the GOP, oops, sorry, the Totally Unaffiliated Super PACs Wink Wink have now pulled their ads in NM, MI, and PA. Their road is just that much tougher.

This story is possibly a much bigger deal, however. The Romney campaign stopped spending in OH right after the GOP voter suppression effort was struck down. I can't imagine they'll go gently into that dark night (their Orval Faubus-wanna be Governor is even dragging his feet on enforcing the ruling) because without OH their electoral math is basically drawing three cards to try to complete a straight.

OTOH, WI is now within 1 point, which is about a 9-point swing towards Romney on the strength of Ryan.

 

[joecct]

Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Having the Dems boo God may cost them a few votes in the wrong places.