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2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vacante

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

It's interesting to see that the Democrats basically are banking on the majority of the voting populace being stupid, or at least unable to think clearly enough to make a connection.

They keep talking about what terrible things the Republicans will do to address the nation's problems, while offering no solutions of their own. do the Democrats really believe that only by increasing taxes on "the rich" that all of our fiscal problems will be solved?

Obama says he wants to spend spend spend (okay "invest" "invest" "invest") yet offers no way to pay for that "investment." and sheeply meekly accept that without question?

yikes.
Look, Obama will win re-election for one reason. We don't throw our incumbent presidents out of office unless, a) they are successfully portrayed as having been ineffective during their first term, and b) they are matched up against a charismatic, effective campaigner.

Accomplishing the first step is easily achieved, and will be again this year. It's the second one that's a lot harder, and Romney is not that guy. He's Kerry, Mondale, Dole, redux.
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Look, I admire you for sticking to your guns, but are you honestly trying to lay the blame for wage stagnation on unions at a point in time when union membership is at an all time low?

Besides, I've been told in the past by certain posters on here that unions cause employees to earn too much pay, not too little.

Gross pay, sure. Take home pay, no. Guess where those raises go? Dues. Union workers have even told me this. The worker gets screwed over much more than you'd think. Then, and this is especially true in a closed union system, the union boss has the ability to bully you over what you do at the workplace, because obviously you can't have a job unless you're in the union, and even in states that observe the Taft-Hartley Act, union bosses will tell their workers to be hostile towards those not in the unions and create a not-so-nice working environment in order for the "clan" to win out. In all reality, every union worker is a sheep to the boss's gain.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

It's interesting to see that the Democrats basically are banking on the majority of the voting populace being stupid, or at least unable to think clearly enough to make a connection.

They keep talking about what terrible things the Republicans will do to address the nation's problems, while offering no solutions of their own. do the Democrats really believe that only by increasing taxes on "the rich" that all of our fiscal problems will be solved?

Obama says he wants to spend spend spend (okay "invest" "invest" "invest") yet offers no way to pay for that "investment." and sheeply meekly accept that without question?

yikes.


Ummmm...Fishy, the Democratic plan is the grand bargain walked away from by The Boner. I sure he was sobbing the whole time too. Unlike the Ryan generational favoratism plan, this allows some domestic spending while cutting the bloated military and raising taxes on GOP campaign contributors who got most of the Bush tax cuts. Try to keep up, will ya?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Ummmm...Fishy, the Democratic plan is the grand bargain walked away from by The Boner. I sure he was sobbing the whole time too. Unlike the Ryan generational favoratism plan, this allows some domestic spending while cutting the bloated military and raising taxes on GOP campaign contributors who got most of the Bush tax cuts. Try to keep up, will ya?
You are debating a Talking Point Dispenser.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Look, Obama will win re-election for one reason. We don't throw our incumbent presidents out of office unless, a) they are successfully portrayed as having been ineffective during their first term, and b) they are matched up against a charismatic, effective campaigner.

Accomplishing the first step is easily achieved, and will be again this year. It's the second one that's a lot harder, and Romney is not that guy. He's Kerry, Mondale, Dole, redux.

yeah, i see what you mean. in our own little informal poll, Not Obama 62.5%, Obama 37.5%, yet Obama has a plurality.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Ummmm...Fishy, the Democratic plan is the grand bargain walked away from by The Boner. I sure he was sobbing the whole time too. Unlike the Ryan generational favoratism plan, this allows some domestic spending while cutting the bloated military and raising taxes on GOP campaign contributors who got most of the Bush tax cuts. Try to keep up, will ya?


You don't appear to understand how taxes work. the person who remits the tax to the government often is not the person who actually bears the burden of the tax.

Do you truly think retailers "pay" the sales tax?

I'm not a supporter of "trickle down" economics; that clearly hasn't worked. We need some kind of "well-spring economics" of some sort.

however, I am 100% certain of this: "vacuum up" economics will not work, and that is what the Democrats propose. It has never worked. No matter what tax rates are, no matter what tax law says, the "rich" have consistently paid about 20% of their income in taxes over the decades. 20% tax on all income actually is much higher than it appears considering how our graduated tax rate system works.

If there are high tax rates, then Congressional representatives of both parties will make sure to insert loopholes for favored constituencies, you can take that to the bank. High tax rates are an illusion; they are never collected as published. Congressional representatives like re-election better than they like anything else.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Look, Obama will win re-election for one reason. We don't throw our incumbent presidents out of office unless, a) they are successfully portrayed as having been ineffective during their first term, and b) they are matched up against a charismatic, effective campaigner.

We get so deep in the weeds we probably forget this simple truth.

Here are the all-time records for elected incumbents in re-elections:

Election Incumbent Result

1792 Washington W
1800 Adams L
1804 Jefferson W
1812 Madison W
1820 Monroe W
1828 Adams L
1832 Jackson W
1840 Van Buren L
1864 Lincoln W
1872 Grant W
1888 Cleveland L
1892 Harrison L
1900 McKinley W
1912 Taft L
1916 Wilson W
1932 Hoover L
1936 Roosevelt W
1940 Roosevelt W
1944 Roosevelt W
1956 Eisenhower W
1972 Nixon W
1980 Carter L
1984 Reagan W
1992 Bush L
1996 Clinton W
2004 Bush W

.654 17-9 overall
.714 10-4 since 1900
.727 8-3 since 1924 (ubiquitous radio)
.714 5-2 since 1956 (ubiquitous television)
1.000 2-0 since 1996 (ubiquitous internet)
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

.727 8-3 since 1924 (ubiquitous radio)
And the three who won were FDR, Reagan and Clinton, three very charismatic personalities and great public speakers.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

It's interesting to see that the Democrats basically are banking on the majority of the voting populace being stupid, or at least unable to think clearly enough to make a connection.

They keep talking about what terrible things the Republicans will do to address the nation's problems, while offering no solutions of their own. do the Democrats really believe that only by increasing taxes on "the rich" that all of our fiscal problems will be solved?

Obama says he wants to spend spend spend (okay "invest" "invest" "invest") yet offers no way to pay for that "investment." and sheeply meekly accept that without question?

yikes.

Yes because the GOP is not banking on the same stupidity. This is the party that claims Paul Ryan is a deficit hawk and fiscally responsible (not to mention Mr. Honesty) even though he voted for all of the Bush spending actions and no ways to pay for it. (oh and he lies every time he opens his mouth, which is the GOP mantra these days 'We dont need no stinkin fact checkers!!)

Just keep telling yourself though one party is better...I am sure deep in your heart it is really true :D
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Just keep telling yourself though one party is better...I am sure deep in your heart it is really true :D

Yes but third parties rarely receive very much of the vote.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

Yes because the GOP is not banking on the same stupidity. This is the party that claims Paul Ryan is a deficit hawk and fiscally responsible (not to mention Mr. Honesty) even though he voted for all of the Bush spending actions and no ways to pay for it. (oh and he lies every time he opens his mouth, which is the GOP mantra these days 'We dont need no stinkin fact checkers!!)

Just keep telling yourself though one party is better...I am sure deep in your heart it is really true :D

I think you're fooling yourself into your complaints about "paying for it", because it is not a SHORT TERM way to pay for it. The budget deficits between FY 2002 and FY 2007 were approximately the same in nominal terms. If you would like to consider inflation, then the real deficit in 2007 was less than 2002.

There are two ways to attempt to increase revenue, both short term and long term. The short term is your suggestion in raising taxes regardless of present situation. Sure, the nominal amount for each individual and business goes up, but there's no guarantee that that number will remain high the next year. How is that possible? Well, for individuals, they could re-neg the source of income gain and turn to cash. The easiest way to see this is dividends and capital gains; all they have to do is sell and hang onto the cash.

The long term is adjusting tax rates to the vertex of the Laffer parabola. If you go in the correct direction, you will gain more in aggregate tax money because either more people are willing to get in with a lower rate that they'd have to pay, or you truly are gaining more in revenue by going the other direction. If your present point on the parabola is to the left of the vertex (assuming tax rate increases along the x-axis), then yes, raising taxes would be a smart thing. I don't think we're there, though, which is why you see fiscal conservatives (GOP and Libertarian) calling for decreases in tax rates. If you play around with property tax rates on Sim City, it's the same thing. Sure, it's a video game, but a pretty decent representation of a person's reaction to tax rates.

There is something that does need to be changed if we want to grow the economy, though, but it isn't something that a President can directly control, nor can he indirectly control until 2014.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

The Laffer Curve again? Seriously, dude, hang it up.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

The Laffer Curve again? Seriously, dude, hang it up.

What is wrong with the Laffer curve, in terms of actual money raised and people's willingness to pay it? This question is not rhetorical.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

It's interesting to see that the Democrats basically are banking on the majority of the voting populace being stupid, or at least unable to think clearly enough to make a connection.


I can't believe that I'm reading this line. The GOP's entire existence as a major party is almost completely dependent upon the stupidity of their constituents... their inability to think clearly... their dependence upon the teat that is GOP talking points.

Suckle away!
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

I can't believe that I'm reading this line. The GOP's entire existence as a major party is almost completely dependent upon the stupidity of their constituents... their inability to think clearly... their dependence upon the teat that is GOP talking points.

Suckle away!

Did you ever think that, maybe, BOTH parties depend upon the ignorance of sheeple? We've gone down to a road of whose slaughterhouse is prettier. Either way, the same result occurs. This is why I look to a third party.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

I can't believe that I'm reading this line. The GOP's entire existence as a major party is almost completely dependent upon the stupidity of their constituents... their inability to think clearly... their dependence upon the teat that is GOP talking points.

Suckle away!

The Republican 2008 VP candidate would seem to support this, almost like it was a test; "Lets see if we can win an election with one of the dumbest people on the planet a heartbeat away..." . :)
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

The Republican 2008 VP candidate would seem to support this, almost like it was a test; "Lets see if we can win an election with one of the dumbest people on the planet a heartbeat away..." . :)
They had already run that test in 1988, unfortunately.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

I can't believe that I'm reading this line. The GOP's entire existence as a major party is almost completely dependent upon the stupidity of their constituents... their inability to think clearly... their dependence upon the teat that is GOP talking points.

Russell Kirk, one of the great intellectual conservatives of the 20th Century, famously said that every philosophy has its drawbacks and the drawback of conservatism is for every tenth person in the movement who actually comprehends it there are nine who are simply there because it feeds an unthinking reactionary stupidity. "Obviously not all conservatives are mindless, but the mindless are all conservatives."
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election Part II -- Charlotte, a National Treasure or sede vaca

What is wrong with the Laffer curve, in terms of actual money raised and people's willingness to pay it? This question is not rhetorical.

You mean the Laffingstock Curve?
 
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