2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

please explain.

Whose money do you think disappeared in 2008? Whose policies do you think led to that collapse? What happened to GW's "ownership" society? We've been living under "trickle down" economic theory for over 30 years folks. This is a very simple thread to follow.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

The whole idea of the democratic experiment was to give the people a mechanism to choose their government. Much of the rhetoric that is reflexively anti-government is motivated by forces that want to roll back that experiment and return power to the strong to dominate the weak.

Like almost everything else that's non-trivial, getting this right requires balancing, and there is no one correct answer that fits every age. You seem highly sensitive to the predations of a too-powerful government, while many of us are sensitive to the predations of the powerful in the absence of some mechanism that can hold them in check. The need for that mechanism should not be anathema to you, though. The Hobbesian notion of government as "an artificial man big enough to check the power of the most powerful man" is at the heart of conservative views towards government as "a necessary evil."

that's primarily because you see only government control or only unchecked predation, a stark either-or choice. Nothing in between. what a harsh world.

There is a third way, which employs non-governmental social sanctions. Of course that requires a community which in turn requires accepting that people of good will have legitimate differences of opinion and emphasis, yet nevertheless all have a vested interest in finding a way to collaborate and co-operate anyway. You conveniently ignore what a force for good our foundations and other eleemosynary institutions have been....I guess the fact that successful people might also be caring people even in the absence of a big-bully government forcing them to be nice doesn't fit your narrative?

It seems that there is a pretty clearcut inverse relationship between government sanction and community voluntarism. People used to watch out for each other just fine, until the state stepped into the middle and simultaneously created a sense of entitlement on one side and a sense of resentment on the other. Quite a few people want to restore a sense of community spirit. You cannot force people to be enthusiastic by passing a law mandating enthusiasm.

 

[geezer]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Whose money do you think disappeared in 2008? Whose policies do you think led to that collapse? What happened to GW's "ownership" society? We've been living under "trickle down" economic theory for over 30 years folks. This is a very simple thread to follow.

I gotcha, I think. You're talking about lost home values as being the Republicans' fault for policy that favored home ownership? ... I guess I'm not going to argue about it.

Although I still think taxes will need to go up, and anyone who is counting on "the rich" to pay enough taxes to bail us out of debt is going to be very unhappy.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

that's primarily because you see only government control or only unchecked predation, a stark either-or choice. Nothing in between. what a harsh world.

That makes no sense. You are mixing up the qualifiers ∃ and ∀. We don't have laws because we believe there is "only" criminality in the world, but because we know there is sometimes criminality.

Government is in part a machine designed to address one particular thing: the drive of certain people to dominate, by any means necessary. History has amply proven they exist in non-trivial numbers and can make life miserably for the rest of us unless we have some means of protecting ourselves against them.

Now, if you can come up with a better machine you're going to be very popular, but so far we've only invented one other, and it... well, it has its own problems.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

I gotcha, I think. You're talking about lost home values as being the Republicans' fault for policy that favored home ownership? ... I guess I'm not going to argue about it.

Although I still think taxes will need to go up, and anyone who is counting on "the rich" to pay enough taxes to bail us out of debt is going to be very unhappy.

Actually it favored a large giveback program to the rich while fooling everyone that the economy was doing well when essentially the entire country was binging on credit. But it all started with the notion that wealth trickles down. It doesn't. It never has.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

People used to watch out for each other just fine, until the state stepped into the middle and simultaneously created a sense of entitlement on one side and a sense of resentment on the other.

People still do this in small groups where they know each other. The problem is scale -- the bigger the group, the less community spirit and the more voluntarism breaks down, until you get the spectacle of people with six homes fighting tooth and nail to keep their taxes low so they don't have to pay for somebody else's can of beans, and feeling self-righteous about it.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

until you get the spectacle of people with six homes fighting tooth and nail to keep their taxes low so they don't have to pay for somebody else's can of beans, and feeling self-righteous about it.

That group has had no problem getting what they want out of their government.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

That group has had no problem getting what they want out of their government.

Those bribes aren't going to pay themselves.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It was in the National Enquirer so it must be true.

uh no. its in Lesley Stahl's book. she also makes some unkind remarks about those with diabilities.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Incorrect actually. Reagan's own family (Jr in this case) said they first saw the signs during his debate performance in 1984, where the normally sharp witted Prez was fumbling with his notes and having trouble with his lines. Reagan himself said that 1986 was the time when he noticed having trouble remembering things. In 1987 before the Iceland summit, Reagan was visited by President Nixon in the WH, who was so concerned that he notified Reagan's cabinet that he didn't think the summit should go forward because the President wasn't nearly as mentally sharp as he appeared on TV. Lastly, from Queen Noor, King Hussein of Jordan's wife, there was the feeling that when he'd call towards the end of his term he'd basically be reading off of script as opposed to engaging in a back and forth conversation.

Again, none of this is the man's fault, but lets have an honest assessment of the guy for once.

Ron Jr's book from 2010 claims he knew all along. however he and his family have been at odds for years. I'd take anything he said with a grain of salt - lots of axes to grind.

uh. would that be the Iceland summit where Reagan kicked Gorby's butt?

ah. the Queen Noor tapes. just how often did she talk with Reagan? he was calling her ... why?

Reagan political opponents tried to define him as a stupid actor. the 'he was crazy" fed right into the meme.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Dick Lugar's not a bad guy but he's about to get run out of town.

Speaking of.

If Mr. Lugar loses, it should increase Democrats’ odds of picking up the Senate seat in November. Democrats have a fairly good candidate in Indiana in the form of United States Representative Joe Donnelly, who represents the Second Congressional District and who narrowly retained his seat in a very tough environment for Democrats nationally in 2010. The Second District, which includes South Bend and Michigan City, is slightly Republican-leaning relative to the country as a whole but slightly Democratic-leaning relative to the rest of Indiana.

So the GOP could drop yet another sure hold because of a centrist getting primaried. Purge, lose, repeat.

It did not look like the Dems could have a single pick-up this time last year. Now they have believable shots in IN, MA, NV, and ME, not to mention CT as a "virtual pick up" on several key issues.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Y'all complain when Republicans don't stick to their values when picking candidates, then you mock them when they do. There's just no pleasing some people!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Y'all complain when Republicans don't stick to their values when picking candidates, then you mock them when they do. There's just no pleasing some people!

No, that would be me that complains. And I'm not mocking them for this one. I am mocking them for their ridiculous choice for the top of the ticket though.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Ron Jr's book from 2010 claims he knew all along. however he and his family have been at odds for years. I'd take anything he said with a grain of salt - lots of axes to grind.

uh. would that be the Iceland summit where Reagan kicked Gorby's butt?

ah. the Queen Noor tapes. just how often did she talk with Reagan? he was calling her ... why?

Reagan political opponents tried to define him as a stupid actor. the 'he was crazy" fed right into the meme.

So we should take your word over his own son's? Got it.

 

[Rover]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Funny, the analogy with which I am familiar is "think of the GOP as thiefs and the Dems as robbers. One steals from you covertly while the other takes your things away from you by force at the point of a gun."


Frankly, I find it a bit creepy that y'all are so comfortable with so much government control. Seriously, what makes you think the government is on "your" side?

I'm guessing that you are probably middle class, which means you are going to bear the brunt of the upcoming income tax increases. It is inevitable ("do the math") because that is where the money is (cue Willy Sutton). You can ignore the canary in the coal mine all you want now,......myself, I miss the singing.



The only thing I've seen is that people who work for government make sure that they are paid first no matter what it might cost anyone else. That does not make me feel warm and fuzzy.

Fishy, explain to me please how conservatives stand for less government? They may stand for less govt in terms of taxation or say regulation, but when it comes to social issues they want more government control. I'll also bring up The Patriot Act for your consideration when any righty starts talking about conservatives safeguarding your freedoms.

Noticed you dropped the "you only vote Dem" bit real quick...

Lastly, as an upper middle class taxpayer (I won't be benefiting from the Romney-Ryan tax giveaway) I say put tax levels back to 1990's levels. That will mean everybody pays more, from the highest to the lowest earners but you know what - so be it. The last time the budget was balanced was under those tax rates, so if it can be done once (or 4 times I believe) then it can be done again with no excuses. Get the revenue mechanisms back in place to a historical rate that worked and take that issue off the table. Then the rest of the work can begin.

 

[Kepler]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

No, that would be me that complains. And I'm not mocking them for this one. I am mocking them for their ridiculous choice for the top of the ticket though.

Romney's not ridiculous; he has functioning brain cells unlike some of their other nominees (Palin, Dubya, Quayle). This will actually be the first Republican ticket without an alarmingly sub-par mind since 1996, and only the second since 1976. Credit where it's due -- with these guys, mediocrity is reaching for the stars.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Romney's not ridiculous; he has functioning brain cells unlike some of their other nominees (Palin, Dubya, Quayle). This will actually be the first Republican ticket without an alarmingly sub-par mind since 1996, and only the second since 1976. Credit where it's due.

Sorry, but he does NOT have or reflect the true values of the Republican Party.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

No, that would be me that complains. And I'm not mocking them for this one. I am mocking them for their ridiculous choice for the top of the ticket though.

I hate to break it to you, but you're not the only complainer in the world. Though you do stand out in the crowd!

 

[BassAle]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

It did not look like the Dems could have a single pick-up this time last year. Now they have believable shots in IN, MA, NV, and ME, not to mention CT as a "virtual pick up" on several key issues.

Angus King (I) is a huge favorite for taking Snowe's seat in Maine. He won't say who he will caucus with and that it depends on what is best for Maine. Some speculate that means he will caucus with whichever party gives him the best committee assignments. He is definitely to the left of the Republican party, especially on social and environmental issues, so I think the Democrats are pretty confident he won't caucus with the Republicans. Progressives are upset because they would rather have put Chellie Pingree in that seat, but they don't want to run a strong candidate and risk letting a Republican win with 33-35% of the vote (which is how our tea bagger governor was elected).

King claims he would rather not caucus with either party, but then he won't get any committee assignments and is basically just there to vote.

 

[walrus]

Re: 2012 Elections - Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death....

Angus King (I) is a huge favorite for taking Snowe's seat in Maine. He won't say who he will caucus with and that it depends on what is best for Maine. Some speculate that means he will caucus with whichever party gives him the best committee assignments. He is definitely to the left of the Republican party, especially on social and environmental issues, so I think the Democrats are pretty confident he won't caucus with the Republicans. Progressives are upset because they would rather have put Chellie Pingree in that seat, but they don't want to run a strong candidate and risk letting a Republican win with 33-35% of the vote (which is how our tea bagger governor was elected).

King claims he would rather not caucus with either party, but then he won't get any committee assignments and is basically just there to vote.

They didn't run Pingree because she had no chance.