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117th Congress: DEMS IN DISARRAY!!!111!!

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First, banks report $10k transactions. Now the talk is reporting of $600 transactions. That may just be a red herring but ...

Sec. Yellen now floats a tax on unrealized capital gains as part of Mr. Biden's plans ... but just on millionaires and billionaires. What's the guess on how long that floats down to anyone that files a 1040? I'll say less time than it took for $10k to become $600.

And a tax on UNREALIZED gains. That's no different than taxing someone on next year's contracted salary. The money isn't in hand, isn't real, hence unrealized, and you're taxing it? How does the person with unrealized dollars pay a real bill?

Yes, I understand how the ultrarich game the system (by buying assets that appreciate, borrowing against assets, and then dying before realizing the cap gain, aka "buy, borrow, die"), but until that gain is real it's a book, or paper, "gain".

That's why I'd favor more consumption based taxes*: You show what you have by what you buy.



*Lots of details about standard deductions, etc, here also to handle. And no, I really don't like retailers being the de facto tax collector either. And this approach is also ripe for fraud and workarounds.
 
Of course you would rather have taxes that have greater impact upon those making less money.

You wouldn't be a "libertarian" if you didn't.
 
The Sicatoka said:
First, banks report $10k transactions. Now the talk is reporting of $600 transactions. That may just be a red herring but ...

Sec. Yellen now floats a tax on unrealized capital gains as part of Mr. Biden's plans ... but just on millionaires and billionaires. What's the guess on how long that floats down to anyone that files a 1040? I'll say less time than it took for $10k to become $600.

And a tax on UNREALIZED gains. That's no different than taxing someone on next year's contracted salary. The money isn't in hand, isn't real, hence unrealized, and you're taxing it? How does the person with unrealized dollars pay a real bill?

Yes, I understand how the ultrarich game the system (by buying assets that appreciate, borrowing against assets, and then dying before realizing the cap gain, aka "buy, borrow, die"), but until that gain is real it's a book, or paper, "gain".

That's why I'd favor more consumption based taxes*: You show what you have by what you buy.



*Lots of details about standard deductions, etc, here also to handle. And no, I really don't like retailers being the de facto tax collector either. And this approach is also ripe for fraud and workarounds.
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Yep. Exactly the same. Except for the wildly different definitions, uses, contexts and, well, everything. But other than that, it's no different at all!
 
The Sicatoka said:
Taxing on money not yet realized (aka: not yet in hand).
Click to expand...

But again, only if you look at it from a perspective that is not legal, not financial and not anything other than a position of "no new taxes". Capital gains and salary income are not the same; they're not treated the same and they probably never will be (though you could make an argument that income should be treated the same regardless of the source... you aren't making that claim).


edit: to add to this, others have pointed out the purpose for this. It will effect a tiny amount of income earners who are deferring capital gains. It's an obvious tax loophole and a fairly straightfoward fix.

Which means of COURSE republicans are against it.
 
Swansong said:
But again, only if you look at it from a perspective that is not legal, not financial and not anything other than a position of "no new taxes". Capital gains and salary income are not the same; they're not treated the same and they probably never will be (though you could make an argument that income should be treated the same regardless of the source... you aren't making that claim).


edit: to add to this, others have pointed out the purpose for this. It will effect a tiny amount of income earners who are deferring capital gains. It's an obvious tax loophole and a fairly straightfoward fix.

Which means of COURSE republicans are against it.
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I think I read it affects 700 people. Yes, that’s the correct number of zeroes.
 
How can you tax on something that hasn't happened yet? (An unrealized capital gain is ... unrealized. It's a potential should the transaction happen. It become real when the transaction happens.)

I know you're going to buy 10 gallons of gas next week. The gas tax is $0.35 per gallon. Send in the $3.50 today.


Capital gains and dividend and interest income should be taxed as ordinary income. (If we're taxing income, income is income, source agnostic.)


There has to be a better way to fix "buy, borrow, die".
 
The Sicatoka said:
Today, as written, 700 people. Tomorrow?


The original bank report transaction number was $10,000. It's being tossed about at $600 now.
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I hope it’s more. Let’s add the millionaires to the list someday- say, 2030, when Democrats might have such an opportunity again. You can thank maverick Kyrsten Sinema your family farm isn’t getting bent over a barrel yet.

As for your $600 transaction limit you’re hyper-fixated on, it’s being tossed too. Joe Manchin saw to that.
 
psych said:
I hope it’s more. Let’s add the millionaires to the list someday- say, 2030, when Democrats might have such an opportunity again. You can thank maverick Kyrsten Sinema your family farm isn’t getting bent over a barrel yet.

As for your $600 transaction limit you’re hyper-fixated on, it’s being tossed too. Joe Manchin saw to that.
Click to expand...

Even the $600 figure was misleading since the system is not designed to look at individual amounts buy at an aggregate. Secondly if anyone thinks the IRS has the resources to give a shit about the average rube making $50,000 a year is off their rocker.
 
The Sicatoka said:
How can you tax on something that hasn't happened yet? (An unrealized capital gain is ... unrealized. It's a potential should the transaction happen. It become real when the transaction happens.)

I know you're going to buy 10 gallons of gas next week. The gas tax is $0.35 per gallon. Send in the $3.50 today.


Capital gains and dividend and interest income should be taxed as ordinary income. (If we're taxing income, income is income, source agnostic.)


There has to be a better way to fix "buy, borrow, die".
Click to expand...

In a world that was fair and just, capital gains, dividend, interest, 1099, W2 and any other income would be treated the same. But until someone proposes that tax structure, we're going with the one we have and "but this whole other thing would be better so we can't do anything to improve the one we have" is bullshit.

Again, this impacts capital gains only, and that gains could be realized if the owner wanted, but has chosen not to. And further, as Psych noted, it impacts only those at the very very top of the income ladder.


I know I've argued from the other side over the years, but the greatest trick the right ever pulled off was convincing normies that they have a real shot at becoming billionaires.
 
psych said:
I hope it’s more. Let’s add the millionaires to the list someday- say, 2030, when Democrats might have such an opportunity again. You can thank maverick Kyrsten Sinema your family farm isn’t getting bent over a barrel yet.
Click to expand...

Sic's logical fallacy is, of course, slippery slope. The irony is that in committing it, he's correctly pointing out that closing this loophole won't hit enough wealthy people. Closing loopholes in the tax code is only the tip of the iceberg - we need higher taxes on corporations and the wealthy across the board.
 
Slap Shot said:
Even the $600 figure was misleading since the system is not designed to look at individual amounts buy at an aggregate. Secondly if anyone thinks the IRS has the resources to give a **** about the average rube making $50,000 a year is off their rocker.
Click to expand...

He is too busy trying to prove Alec Baldwin should go to jail to know what is really going on...
 
The Sicatoka said:
*Lots of details about standard deductions, etc, here also to handle. And no, I really don't like retailers being the de facto tax collector either. And this approach is also ripe for fraud and workarounds.
Click to expand...

I rarely if ever agree with you, but it would take people exactly 0 minutes to suffer unrealized losses and start getting paid.

Dems have to start realizing nothing they want will ever happen, the function as a brief respite of Republican agenda.
 
sagard said:
Dems have to start realizing nothing they want will ever happen, the function as a brief respite of Republican agenda.
Click to expand...

Yep, this country is hosed. It's incredible how quickly it's coming unglued, too. A third of Americans have embraced demagoguery and willful ignorance, and another third simply don't care anymore as long as they still get their teevee, video games, and fast food.
 
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