Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

[matt]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Unless I am viewing this wrong, it appears that if Notre Dame wins tomorrow you guys are in. If Michigan wins, you guys are golfing. Could be wrong though!

This is correct.
If Notre Dame wins tomorrow, Yale will play against Minnesota in Grand Rapids on Friday. Convenient for me, as I live in Michigan and Friday is a work holiday. So I will be there if it happens.

The rest of the tournament is pretty well set:
Providence -- Quinnipiac vs. Canisius

Manchester -- Lowell vs. Saint Cloud State

Toledo -- Notre Dame vs. Wisconsin

Grand Rapids -- Minnesota vs. Yale/Michigan

The #2 vs #3 games are a bit dicier to predict because of various restrictions on the committee. If they go the route they usually go, then it may end up being North Dakota vs. Niagara in Providence; Miami vs. Minnesota State in Toledo, New Hampshire vs. Union in Manchester; and Boston College vs. Denver in Grand Rapids.

If that comes to pass, then Yale would be looking -- assuming they pull off a miracle against Minnesota -- at a regional final against a team they've already outplayed on the road this year (OT win at Denver, tie at BC). So I guess all's not lost.

But first things first: Notre Dame has to beat Michigan.

 

[MarkEagleUSA]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Tough weekend for the Bulldogs. And now you have to wait until tomorrow afternoon to see if you make the big dance.

While I always enjoy beating Yale, today's win was bittersweet for me due to the circumstances (for both teams). Because of that I can't even gloat.

But I need to say that I met YaleDoc this weekend and saw him after todays game down on the floor just outside the rink going around and congratulating the Bobcat players. That's a classy move Doc... kudos to you.

Best of luck to Yale if your season continues. My only hope is that we don't see you again until next season.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

This is correct.
If Notre Dame wins tomorrow, Yale will play against Minnesota in Grand Rapids on Friday. Convenient for me, as I live in Michigan and Friday is a work holiday. So I will be there if it happens.

The rest of the tournament is pretty well set:
Providence -- Quinnipiac vs. Canisius

Manchester -- Lowell vs. Saint Cloud State

Toledo -- Notre Dame vs. Wisconsin/Colorado winnier

Grand Rapids -- Minnesota vs. Yale/Michigan

The #2 vs #3 games are a bit dicier to predict because of various restrictions on the committee. If they go the route they usually go, then it may end up being North Dakota vs. Union in Providence; Miami vs. Minnesota State in Toledo, New Hampshire vs. Niagara in Manchester; and Boston College vs. Denver in Grand Rapids.

If that comes to pass, then Yale would be looking -- assuming they pull off a miracle against Minnesota -- at a regional final against a team they've already outplayed on the road this year (OT win at Denver, tie at BC). So I guess all's not lost.

But first things first: Notre Dame has to beat Michigan.

Why would they put two ECAC teams in Providence? Would't they want to spread them out?

 

[matt]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Why would they put two ECAC teams in Providence? Would't they want to spread them out?

I have update my prior post. It'll all go by pairwise unless there is a compelling reason to change it. As it happens, I believe my first cut at it inadvertently had Niagara and Union switched -- that is, it seems to me more likely that Union will end up in Manchester vs. New Hampshire, with Niagara coming to Providence.

But there is nothing at all stopping them from putting two ECAC teams in Providence. Just 2 years ago, they put two ECAC teams in Bridgeport. UMD beat both of them (Union and Yale) and went on to win the National Championship.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

I have update my prior post. It'll all go by pairwise unless there is a compelling reason to change it. As it happens, I believe my first cut at it inadvertently had Niagara and Union switched -- that is, it seems to me more likely that Union will end up in Manchester vs. New Hampshire, with Niagara coming to Providence.

But there is nothing at all stopping them from putting two ECAC teams in Providence. Just 2 years ago, they put two ECAC teams in Bridgeport. UMD beat both of them (Union and Yale) and went on to win the National Championship.

Matt: Thanks .... Yale and Union should never have been in the same Region that year. That was unfair.

I am hoping that Yale makes it and that all three ECAC teams start off in their own Region. I believe that this year is the best crop of ECAC teams in a long time and hopefully at least two of them might make it to the final 4. I don't want a situation where they keep knocking each other off. A number one seed like Quinnipiac has the best chance because they will start with a weaker team. The best of all worlds would have been 4 ECAC teams each in their own Regional.

 

[matt]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Matt: Thanks .... Yale and Union should never have been in the same Region that year. That was unfair.

I am hoping that Yale makes it and that all three ECAC teams start off in their own Region. I believe that this year is the best crop of ECAC teams in a long time and hopefully at least two of them might make it to the final 4. I don't want a situation where they keep knocking each other off. A number one seed like Quinnipiac has the best chance because they will start with a weaker team. The best of all worlds would have been 4 ECAC teams each in their own Regional.

Moy's brackets are out, and he also put Union in Providence. Though he broke the rule of having the #8 seed in the same location as the #1 seed, in order to put Boston College there as well (a wise move, but not one that I'm confident the committee will make).

I can't agree with the notion of "a situation where they keep knocking each other off." In point of fact, that has never happened since the tournament went to 16 teams, as in that time there have been no games matching ECAC teams against each other. Before speculating on multiple ECAC teams in the frozen 4, let's see a tournament in which multiple ECAC teams even make it to the 2nd round.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Matt:

let's see a tournament in which multiple ECAC teams even make it to the 2nd round.

You forget that last year Cornell almost made it to the Frozen Four (one goal) and would have played UNION. If UNION knocks off BC (Yale tied them this year) then it will be ECAC (Union) vs ECAC (Quinnipiac).

As noted some of the early speculation around NCAA brackets and playoffs has UNION and QUINNIPIAC in the same Region (Providence) despite them being possibly the only two ECAC teams. I believe that this is a great disservice to both teams and negates any chance that two ECAC teams can make the Frozen Four. This same disservice occurred two years ago when UNION and YALE where put in the same Region with Duluth, who beat them both and went on to the national title. Somehow when its time the bend the rules to make things fit, the ECAC gets scr*wed.

I believe that both UNION and QUINNIPIAC (and YALE if they get in) can make the Frozen 4 this year. Last year had Cornell scored one more goal we might have had two ECAC teams in the Frozen Four.

I just feel that the ECAC is stronger this year than last and that if they can seed the NCAA tournament in a fair way, not driven by money, they can show the rest of College Hockey just how good they have become. You obviously don't agree.

Your thoughts?

 

[matt]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Matt:

let's see a tournament in which multiple ECAC teams even make it to the 2nd round.

You forget that last year Cornell almost made it to the Frozen Four (one goal) and would have played UNION. If UNION knocks off BC (Yale tied them this year) then it will be ECAC (Union) vs ECAC (Quinnipiac).

As noted some of the early speculation around NCAA brackets and playoffs has UNION and QUINNIPIAC in the same Region (Providence) despite them being possibly the only two ECAC teams. I believe that this is a great disservice to both teams and negates any chance that two ECAC teams can make the Frozen Four. This same disservice occurred two years ago when UNION and YALE where put in the same Region with Duluth, who beat them both and went on to the national title. Somehow when its time the bend the rules to make things fit, the ECAC gets scr*wed.

I believe that both UNION and QUINNIPIAC (and YALE if they get in) can make the Frozen 4 this year. Last year had Cornell scored one more goal we might have had two ECAC teams in the Frozen Four.

I just feel that the ECAC is stronger this year than last and that if they can seed the NCAA tournament in a fair way, not driven by money, they can show the rest of College Hockey just how good they have become. You obviously don't agree.

Your thoughts?

The fact of the matter is that, since the tournament went to 16 teams in 2003, there has not been a single instance in which two ECAC teams played each other in the tournament.

By contrast, here are the instances in other conferences:
WCHA: 12
HE: 6
CCHA: 4

Those aren't, "it almost happened in the frozen 4" instances. Those are times when other conferences had teams knock each other off. Including last year's West regional, which featured #2 Minnesota taking out #1 North Dakota. In point of fact, there have been many instances in which the same conference has had the top two seeds in the same region, going back to the first 16-team tournament in which BU and New Hampshire were both placed in the same region, and had to play each other for the frozen 4 bid. In 2008, the committed put *three* WCHA teams in one region, thereby breaking one of its own rules and forcing a first round intra-conference game between Denver and Wisconsin.

The idea that the ECAC, which is plainly a major beneficiary of the Pairwise selection method, is somehow "screwed" by the selection process, just doesn't hold water.

As for Yale: I'm an alum, and a big fan. But I also recognize that Yale went 0-5-1 against the two ECAC teams that have clinched berths, that all 5 of those losses are in the last 12 games, and that all 5 losses were lopsided, and that the combined score of those 5 losses was 22-5. It's hard to build a credible case that Yale is better than, say, Western Michigan (Western is the first team out, if Yale makes it).

 

[hockeyenthusiast]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Matt:

let's see a tournament in which multiple ECAC teams even make it to the 2nd round.

You forget that last year Cornell almost made it to the Frozen Four (one goal) and would have played UNION. If UNION knocks off BC (Yale tied them this year) then it will be ECAC (Union) vs ECAC (Quinnipiac).

As noted some of the early speculation around NCAA brackets and playoffs has UNION and QUINNIPIAC in the same Region (Providence) despite them being possibly the only two ECAC teams. I believe that this is a great disservice to both teams and negates any chance that two ECAC teams can make the Frozen Four. This same disservice occurred two years ago when UNION and YALE where put in the same Region with Duluth, who beat them both and went on to the national title. Somehow when its time the bend the rules to make things fit, the ECAC gets scr*wed.

I believe that both UNION and QUINNIPIAC (and YALE if they get in) can make the Frozen 4 this year. Last year had Cornell scored one more goal we might have had two ECAC teams in the Frozen Four.

I just feel that the ECAC is stronger this year than last and that if they can seed the NCAA tournament in a fair way, not driven by money, they can show the rest of College Hockey just how good they have become. You obviously don't agree.

Your thoughts?

You're alone in that belief. We're lucky that Quinnipiac gets Canisius, that way we might win at least one tournament game. I do agree that Union is currently the strongest ECAC team and could knock off BC, but I don't think the ECAC will be able to get 2 teams to the Frozen Four. Therefore, it's best that they're in the same region so in the eventuality that they win their first round games, we might secure a spot in the FF for the league.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

The fact of the matter is that, since the tournament went to 16 teams in 2003, there has not been a single instance in which two ECAC teams played each other in the tournament.

By contrast, here are the instances in other conferences:
WCHA: 12
HE: 6
CCHA: 4

Those aren't, "it almost happened in the frozen 4" instances. Those are times when other conferences had teams knock each other off. Including last year's West regional, which featured #2 Minnesota taking out #1 North Dakota. In point of fact, there have been many instances in which the same conference has had the top two seeds in the same region, going back to the first 16-team tournament in which BU and New Hampshire were both placed in the same region, and had to play each other for the frozen 4 bid. In 2008, the committed put *three* WCHA teams in one region, thereby breaking one of its own rules and forcing a first round intra-conference game between Denver and Wisconsin.

The idea that the ECAC, which is plainly a major beneficiary of the Pairwise selection method, is somehow "screwed" by the selection process, just doesn't hold water.

As for Yale: I'm an alum, and a big fan. But I also recognize that Yale went 0-5-1 against the two ECAC teams that have clinched berths, that all 5 of those losses are in the last 12 games, and that all 5 losses were lopsided, and that the combined score of those 5 losses was 22-5. It's hard to build a credible case that Yale is better than, say, Western Michigan (Western is the first team out, if Yale makes it).

Matt:
You make some excellent points and you back them up. The idea that the ECAC, which is plainly a major beneficiary of the Pairwise selection method, is somehow "screwed" by the selection process, just doesn't hold water. I was specifically referring to putting Yale and Union in the same Region two years ago. The other leagues, like this years WCHA have more than 4 teams and it is not possible to avoid inter-conference games but the ECAC might only have two so I would think that it would be fairly easy to get them into different regions. Yale beat Denver and Colorado College and tied BC and destroyed a very good St. Lawrence team and if you think that, as I do, that the ECAC has gained in competitiveness and its two current entrants can play with anyone, then Yale's recent performance should not be the final word. I hope they make it.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

You're alone in that belief.

Yes,

I believe that the ECAC is a much better league than it has been historically and I just want to make sure it gets a chance to prove it. I do believe that last year its top two teams, Union and Cornell, could have made it to the frozen four and they almost did. I also believe that this year its two top teams can also make it and yes, it does look like I am alone in this belief. I would have really liked to see how far RPI and Brown could have gone as well. When you look at the talent on Cornell and Harvard these paste few years .... and I still hope Yale makes it.

Yale beat Denver, Colorado College and ties BC. Dartmouth beat New Hampshire. Cornell beat Michigan, Colorado College and Ferris State. Last year the ECAC was 3-2 in the NCAA's and the WCHA was 4-4

Yes, I am alone ... and that usually means I am wrong by the way.

But we will never know if Union ends up in Providence.

 

[streaker]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

You're alone in that belief.

Yes,

I believe that the ECAC is a much better league than it has been historically and I just want to make sure it gets a chance to prove it. I do believe that last year its top two teams, Union and Cornell, could have made it to the frozen four and they almost did. I also believe that this year its two top teams can also make it and yes, it does look like I am alone in this belief. I would have really liked to see how far RPI and Brown could have gone as well. When you look at the talent on Cornell and Harvard these paste few years .... and I still hope Yale makes it.

Yale beat Denver, Colorado College and ties BC. Dartmouth beat New Hampshire. Cornell beat Michigan, Colorado College and Ferris State. Last year the ECAC was 3-2 in the NCAA's and the WCHA was 4-4

Yes, I am alone ... and that usually means I am wrong by the way.

But we will never know if Union ends up in Providence.

The ECAC is a quality league with good teams. There should not be any asterisks with that. The biggest knock on the league is that they have not had a team in the NCAA championship game in... what... 2+ decades? The average fan only sees stuff like that. I know that teams like Cornell, Union and Yale etc. are quality teams (believe me, I know, with Michigan losing to Cornell twice, RPI, Union.... and only beating Clarkson in the past 5 seasons...) Now they just have to win when it matters and shut some other fans up.

Good luck if Michigan loses today and you move into the tourney.

 

[hockeyenthusiast]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

You're alone in that belief.

Yes,

I believe that the ECAC is a much better league than it has been historically and I just want to make sure it gets a chance to prove it. I do believe that last year its top two teams, Union and Cornell, could have made it to the frozen four and they almost did. I also believe that this year its two top teams can also make it and yes, it does look like I am alone in this belief. I would have really liked to see how far RPI and Brown could have gone as well. When you look at the talent on Cornell and Harvard these paste few years .... and I still hope Yale makes it.

Yale beat Denver, Colorado College and ties BC. Dartmouth beat New Hampshire. Cornell beat Michigan, Colorado College and Ferris State. Last year the ECAC was 3-2 in the NCAA's and the WCHA was 4-4

Yes, I am alone ... and that usually means I am wrong by the way.

But we will never know if Union ends up in Providence.

Exactly! That's all true. The problem is that ECAC teams rarely win when it matters. Exceptions have been Cornell in 2003 and Union last year. 2 out of the last 5 years, Cornell was one good period or less away from the Frozen Four (Bemidji game was 1-1 going into the third and Ferris OT loss last year).

 

[matt]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

You're alone in that belief.

Yes,

I believe that the ECAC is a much better league than it has been historically and I just want to make sure it gets a chance to prove it. I do believe that last year its top two teams, Union and Cornell, could have made it to the frozen four and they almost did. I also believe that this year its two top teams can also make it and yes, it does look like I am alone in this belief. I would have really liked to see how far RPI and Brown could have gone as well. When you look at the talent on Cornell and Harvard these paste few years .... and I still hope Yale makes it.

Yale beat Denver, Colorado College and ties BC. Dartmouth beat New Hampshire. Cornell beat Michigan, Colorado College and Ferris State. Last year the ECAC was 3-2 in the NCAA's and the WCHA was 4-4

Yes, I am alone ... and that usually means I am wrong by the way.

But we will never know if Union ends up in Providence.

Since the advent of the 16-team tournament, the ECAC is 11-22 in NCAA games. Last year was the first time during that period when the ECAC actually won more games than it lost. The ECAC has placed two teams in the frozen four, none in the championship game. In short, the league has a whole lot to prove before claiming it deserves any kind of special consideration. Yes, Yale won at Denver and at Colorado -- both in OT. Yale also tied BC. Yale owns no regulation wins against NCAA tournament teams this year.

Up until the first QU game, I thought Yale was a legit frozen 4 contender this year. I watched that game on Yale All-Access, and what I saw didn't look remotely like a contending team. But I was willing to get on the thinking that somehow it was Malcolm's injury that derailed the *offense* for 5 games.

But there can't be excuses for what happened this past weekend. I hope Yale gets in. I'll be in Grand Rapids if it happens. But I'm not under any illusion that the team actually deserves to be there.

 

[W-force]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Going into a big weekend with confidence and coming away with two shutout losses is painfully familiar to SLU fans.

What's not familiar and what is really unforgivable IMO, is your coach's behavior after yesterday's game. Is this really what the high powered Eli boosters want?

Here's link to Joshua Seguin's piece on college hockey news. http://www.collegehockeynews.com/news/2013/03/23_yales_frustration_apparent.php
And here is how Seguin described Yale's classless goodbye to AC in that piece...

"The realization of missed opportunities, and the frustrations within, were apparent as Yale quicky bolted out of Boardwalk Hall, without addressing the media. In what is typically a mandatory event, Yale's coaches chose to leave instead.

What that means, or how that approach bodes going forward, remains to be seen. Maybe Yale still believes in itself and feels it was the victim of strong goaltending and tough breaks — but we'll never know, because it didn't say."

All ECAC fans should be rooting for a third representative to make the NCAA's. Kieth Allain is making it very hard in this case.

 

[BigDEli]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Yeah, Allain is gruff and not great with the media. Yeah, it would have been better if they'd stuck around to answer a few questions. But let's not act like he refused to shake hands, or physically confronted the refs, or launched into some profanity-laced tirade. On the broad spectrum of bad coach behavior, it's not a huge deal, never mind "really unforgivable". And the high powered Eli boosters, at least the ones I know (and to the extend that "high powered boosters" even really exist at Yale), aren't going to care either....he's done nothing but win and graduate players since he got to Yale, and if he's doing those two things, he can never give in an interview again for all most of us care.

Having said all that, the team was really disappointing this weekend, and as much as I'd like them to sneak in the back door into the tournament, they certainly don't deserve it. They strike me as a team that has a specific level of talent, and do very well against teams with less talent and very poorly against teams with more. Which wouldn't bode well for a first round game against Minnesota.

 

[Dutchman]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Since the advent of the 16-team tournament, the ECAC is 11-22 in NCAA games. Last year was the first time during that period when the ECAC actually won more games than it lost. The ECAC has placed two teams in the frozen four, none in the championship game. In short, the league has a whole lot to prove before claiming it deserves any kind of special consideration. Yes, Yale won at Denver and at Colorado -- both in OT. Yale also tied BC. Yale owns no regulation wins against NCAA tournament teams this year.

Up until the first QU game, I thought Yale was a legit frozen 4 contender this year. I watched that game on Yale All-Access, and what I saw didn't look remotely like a contending team. But I was willing to get on the thinking that somehow it was Malcolm's injury that derailed the *offense* for 5 games.

But there can't be excuses for what happened this past weekend. I hope Yale gets in. I'll be in Grand Rapids if it happens. But I'm not under any illusion that the team actually deserves to be there.

Matt:
Not asking for any special treatment for the ECAC. If the committee selects based on the rules, Union will not end up in Providence, but in Toledo. I also appreciated everything you have said about the history of the ECAC. I am just pointing out that I think recently that may be changing a little. All I know is that last year we had two teams almost make it and this year the top two teams are, in my humble position, better that last year. I do not know with any degree of certainty, whether they will both wash out but my gut tells me, that if they play to their potential, we will see two ECAC teams in the final 4 and perhaps a national champ. This opportunity may not come back for a long time so I don't want to miss it.

Also, the Yale coach went out of his way to say a lot of nice words about us after the Brown game and wished us the very best. I thought that was very classy of him to do that, especially how he was feeling at that time.

 

[matt]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Matt:
Not asking for any special treatment for the ECAC. If the committee selects based on the rules, Union will not end up in Providence, but in Toledo. I also appreciated everything you have said about the history of the ECAC. I am just pointing out that I think recently that may be changing a little. All I know is that last year we had two teams almost make it and this year the top two teams are, in my humble position, better that last year. I do not know with any degree of certainty, whether they will both wash out but my gut tells me, that if they play to their potential, we will see two ECAC teams in the final 4 and perhaps a national champ. This opportunity may not come back for a long time so I don't want to miss it.

This is the 3rd time in 11 years of a 16-year tournament that the ECAC has had the #1 overall seed going in.

Frankly, I think that a Providence region featuring QU and Union in addition to Canisius and Boston College (if Moy is right) or even North Dakota (if the committee sticks to the seeding numbers) is an ECAC dream come true. IF the league can't place a frozen four team with that, when will they, ever? We had an even easier regional two years ago in Bridgeport, and we couldn't win that one, either. This year, if Providence is QU, Union and Canisius along with BC, the betting money will be *heavily* on BC to come out as the region's winner -- and BC isn't even all that good this year. Same, if the 4th team is North Dakota.

I've been around long enough to see many, many missed opportunities. And also long enough to remember Harvard and RPI actually winning national championships.
There is nothing particularly special about this year, IMHO. Quinnipiac's OOC results are decidedly unimpressive, including a blowout loss to Robert Morris and a loss to American International. Their in-conference losses include last-place Harvard. Union was demolished consecutive games by a poor Lake Superior team, and their in-conference losses include 11-place Colgate. I see nothing in the record of either team to suggest, even remotely, that they are national championship quality. And Yale's PWR is inflated due to a couple overtime goals back in December. Sure, things could happen. A soft goal here, a lucky break there. Hartzell could have the 2 weeks of his life. But I very much doubt that it will happen, no matter where the teams are placed.

 

[northeastern]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

Go Notre Dame! .. g'luck Yale.

 

[LTsatch]

Re: Yale Bulldogs Hockey - 2012-2013

As to Allain, to his credit, this was his first comment worthy "incident" of the season. In past years there would have been three or four posts like this. It doesn't make it right, but in the pantheon of incidents involving the Coach, this one is minor. Here is to Irish luck for Yale!