World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

[Kepler]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

To be fair, that still doesn't exactly answer the question as to if/why/how it would improve American soccer.

Oh, I entirely agree. I was just saying that argument is not so much "let's copy Europe" as "let's organize as association football is everywhere else on Earth." You could for example, have an English baseball league where all the teams were owned by the league and players were doled out to maximize revenue. And it would be "baseball," but I think we would tend to look down on it. IINM that's how USSR hockey was run, and as I recall we didn't have a very high opinion of it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

I have never understood our obsession with pro/rep. It's kinda cool

Then you do understand it. It's cool because it's different. I like the idea of punishing teams that f-ck up and rewarding Cinderellas with promotion.

It's quite strange that significantly smaller European countries have the league depth to do it, while we with all our money and population are stuck with one permanent top league.

Let's say, for example, that we adopted pro/rel for baseball. MLB / AAA / AA / A levels, with all ownership groups having to be separate and the minor leagues as independent franchises and not feeder teams -- much the way baseball was organized decades ago when the leagues went all the way down to C or maybe even D.

One thing that would enable us to do is cut back on games and make a shorter RS, since there would still be dozens (hundreds?) more teams in the mix for titles. It would become much more like D-1 football, which seems to do quite well financially. Each season would start with say 20 teams at each level playing say a 114 game season (3 home, 3 away against each). There would also be all sorts of cross-promotions, "derbys" etc, but they wouldn't f-ck with the standings.

We are big enough that we could even support two entirely separate "trees" with the AL and NL at the pinnacle respectively, with the WS being a best of 7 pitting the two league champions with the best records -- the two actual best teams, every year, like it was in the old days. National broadcasters would have contracts concentrating on the top leagues, but the teams would still have their own local affiliate networks. If the Yankees got relegated they would spend the next year playing AAA opponents in the AL tree and tons of cities would get to see them which would otherwise never get to. And every city could afford a team at some level, and dream of having a miracle run where they were promoted and then got to play in a "bigger" league.

Now, would this really work for baseball? Perhaps but why change baseball's traditions so radically? But soccer is still nascent in the US and we can create any structure we want, so why not something like that instead of just another boring MLB, NBA, NHL style league?

 

[JF_Gophers]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

I'm confused as to why these ideas have to do something for American soccer to be valid.

Can't it be just improve competitive play in a sports league?

 

[Kepler]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

Not sure if this has been mentioned but it's an OK piece with much more interesting Comments. Also, I swear to God I am not Le Comte de Brûleur, who appears to be my lost twin.

Anyway, it's the same argument we're having here though people seem to be putting a little more into it. There are also linked pieces which purport to argue for why pro-rel would benefit American soccer but I have not read them yet.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but it's an OK piece with much more interesting Comments. Also, I swear to God I am not Le Comte de Brûleur, who appears to be my lost twin.

Anyway, it's the same argument we're having here though people seem to be putting a little more into it. There are also linked pieces which purport to argue for why pro-rel would benefit American soccer but I have not read them yet.

You lost all credibility linking to a Haisley article. Dude is a hack with an agenda.

 

[joecct]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

IIRC some PL stars have contracts that make them free agents if their PL team gets relegated.

 

[Jimjamesak]

IIRC some PL stars have contracts that make them free agents if their PL team gets relegated.

The vast majority of PL players have that in their contracts. It's actually a benefit to the team, if they get relegated and lose revenue they suddenly don't have a huge wage anchor hanging on them.

 

[Kepler]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

You lost all credibility linking to a Haisley article. Dude is a hack with an agenda.

I don't know the players, I just know that the arguments that are coming up here and also replayed there. The only thing about soccer personalities I know for sure is Alexi Lalas was cute but seems like a self-promoting idiot and that woman who used to be on Men in Blazers and now does bits on the one the majors (NBCSN?) is wonderful and twenty times smarter than anyone else in the booth.

 

[Kepler]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

The vast majority of PL players have that in their contracts. It's actually a benefit to the team, if they get relegated and lose revenue they suddenly don't have a huge wage anchor hanging on them.

Call it EPL. Anything to pis-s off the vampire squids.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Then you do understand it. It's cool because it's different. I like the idea of punishing teams that f-ck up and rewarding Cinderellas with promotion.

Here's the problem, like you, a lot of people are caught in the romanticism of pro/rel without looking at the reality of it. The reality of pro/rel is that doesn't punish teams that **** up and promote Cinderellas, it makes rich teams richer, the poor teams bankrupt, and the middle irrelevant. Everyone loves to wax poetic about Leicester but no one talks about Leeds or Portsmouth or the countless clubs across Europe that can't even pay their players all because they're struggling to keep up with the larger clubs. Look at the leagues around the world and in the vast majority of them it's the same 3-4 clubs usually winning. That's what happens in pro/rel, a few haves, a few teams in the middle, and a ton struggling to keep up.

It's quite strange that significantly smaller European countries have the league depth to do it, while we with all our money and population are stuck with one permanent top league.

Because most of them have 100+ years of history.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

There are no Cinderellas in pro/rel.

At most you have teams that might rise over the course of decades, and once-in-a-generation stories like Leicester. The rest is the same old top heavy leagues with the so-called Cinderella teams actually battling out for the right to be the 20th best team in the country.

It's a cute idea, but it's the death of parity in the long run.

But hey, if it's the only acceptable way to run everything, let's use it on the international stage. Four new teams every World Cup that get the privilege to fight to finish 27th and pray to return in four years, even though they probably won't.

 

[Jimjamesak]

There are no Cinderellas in pro/rel.

At most you have teams that might rise over the course of decades, and once-in-a-generation stories like Leicester. The rest is the same old top heavy leagues with the so-called Cinderella teams actually battling out for the right to be the 20th best team in the country.

It's a cute idea, but it's the death of parity in the long run.

But hey, if it's the only acceptable way to run everything, let's use it on the international stage. Four new teams every World Cup that get the privilege to fight to finish 27th and pray to return in four years, even though they probably won't.

Spot on. Best example is Fulham, they were the darlings of the pro/rel movement for years. Al-Fayed bought them, spent a ton of money to move them up divisions into the PL in five years, they plugged along in the PL for years even reaching the Europa League Final. Then, Al-Fayed sold the club, they had one bad season, got relegated and have been irrelevant since.

And it's only England that has the real robust lower league system, get past the second division in most countries and it's all regional, semi-pro leagues. Heck, Germany didn't have a national third division until 2008, and it still has Bundesliga reserve teams in it!

 

[cF[Authentic]]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

Does implementing a salary cap help?

 

[joecct]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

CHUM TSN1050 in Toronto is having a discussion on pro/rel. You can listen on tsn.ca and follow the radio links.

The premise from the host is pro/rel will end the tanking and sell offs

 

[Kepler]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

it makes rich teams richer, the poor teams bankrupt, and the middle irrelevant. Everyone loves to wax poetic about Leicester but no one talks about Leeds or Portsmouth or the countless clubs across Europe that can't even pay their players all because they're struggling to keep up with the larger clubs. Look at the leagues around the world and in the vast majority of them it's the same 3-4 clubs usually winning. That's what happens in pro/rel, a few haves, a few teams in the middle, and a ton struggling to keep up.

Is that because of pro-rel, though? I'm not challenging you, I'm asking. What is the mechanism by which pro-rel leads to a few dominant teams?

I suppose we could both have our way by having a fixed league and then a major American FA Cup with wide open qualifying.

I do really like the idea of ending the playoffs and just having a league champion, though. Perhaps have the league champions of the top 4 levels play each other every year in a Champions Cup, L4 at L1, L3 at L2, and then have the final at a Wembley-like American soccer mecca that is not home for any team (LA Coliseum I guess?)

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

Is that because of pro-rel, though? I'm not challenging you, I'm asking. What is the mechanism by which pro-rel leads to a few dominant teams?

Pro/Rel worked pretty decently until television money became a real thing, which for club soccer wasn't until the 80's. Before that there was a large reliance on attendance revenue. The unfortunate consequence of this was teams never spent any money on stadium and infrastructure, money spent on infrastructure was risky because it wasn't money spent on players to win, as such stadiums crumbled and that's a major reason we had disasters like Heysel and Hillsborough (among others).

With the advent of satellite TV across Europe, TV networks used soccer as a way to lure subscribers and spent millions on TV rights. Larger, more successful clubs wanted a bigger piece of the TV money pie. This lead to two ways to dealing with TV rights, either collectively like the Premier League (which was formed in 1992 specifically for TV rights) and Bundesliga but award payments based on finish or by allowing clubs to negotiate separately like Spain and Italy. This has lead to a huge disparity between the money teams receive at the First Division level and the Second Division level. The difference between being a PL club and a Championship club money wise is staggering. It's even worse in places like Spain, Real Madrid and Barcelona absolutely dominate the TV money.

Another consequence of TV money was the massive expansion of the European Cup into the Champions League. This lead to even more money going to the larger clubs, allowing them to establish even more revenue producing streams like stadium expansions, larger sponsorship deals, and even TV networks. The top European clubs literally dwarf other clubs financially. The only way to break in is to either have a sugar daddy like Chelsea and Man City or go into massive debt like Leeds did, and one unlucky finish (5th) was enough to send Leeds into a death spiral.

I suppose we could both have our way by having a fixed league and then a major American FA Cup with wide open qualifying.

I do really like the idea of ending the playoffs and just having a league champion, though. Perhaps have the league champions of the top 4 levels play each other every year in a Champions Cup, L4 at L1, L3 at L2, and then have the final at a Wembley-like American soccer mecca that is not home for any team (LA Coliseum I guess?)

We have this already, it's called the US Open Cup.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

CHUM TSN1050 in Toronto is having a discussion on pro/rel. You can listen on tsn.ca and follow the radio links.

The premise from the host is pro/rel will end the tanking and sell offs

Actually, one of the main consequences of the massive difference in TV money between two divisions has been a real lack of goals and offensive play. Mid level/low level teams tend to play conservatively for draws as a means of survival. The financial risk of trying to play offensively is way too great.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

Does implementing a salary cap help?

Maybe, but it's near impossible to implement a salary cap when a) a bad season leading to relegation can cost you millions and b) your top teams are trying to win the Champions League.

And like I said, league revenue isn't shared equally, it's based on finish.

 

[French Rage]

Re: World Soccer XXVII: The REAL Football

Why are both ESPNs showing the Chunders play the Failaxy?

 

[Jimjamesak]

Why are both ESPNs showing the Chunders play the Failaxy?

Because Kasey Keller is boredom personified...