World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Two thoughts:

1. I will never understand some of the assertions of commenters that sitting on the bench at Sunderland or Stoke is better than playing in MLS. Playing games is a better developer for form than sitting on the bench. The training is marginally better, but training only does so much.

2. * Klinsmann for saying going to MLS was a bad move for Clint Dempsey. Seriously, * that. Clint scores two goals at the World Cup, plays 2/3rds of a game with a broken nose, plays the rest out of position, is one of the best players in MLS, and leads his team that is tied for first. Bad move? He's doing a * ton better than he would be riding the pine at Tottenham or playing on some other mid level EPL team.

Nobody said that sitting on the bench at Sunderland is better than playing in MLS. What Klinsmann said is that PLAYING in Europe is better than playing in MLS, and he's absolutely right about that. The fact that Dempsey made a poor decision to leave Fulham, got jerked around at Spurs (famous for buying lots of new shiny toys and then never finding a way to use them), and then wound up in Seattle does nothing to disprove this fact. And the fact that he's one of the best players in MLS does nothing to disprove the claim that he could be a BETTER player if he were playing against better competition in a better league.

And I'm not sure how his broken nose has any bearing on this at all.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Nobody said that sitting on the bench at Sunderland is better than playing in MLS. What Klinsmann said is that PLAYING in Europe is better than playing in MLS, and he's absolutely right about that. The fact that Dempsey made a poor decision to leave Fulham, got jerked around at Spurs (famous for buying lots of new shiny toys and then never finding a way to use them), and then wound up in Seattle does nothing to disprove this fact. And the fact that he's one of the best players in MLS does nothing to disprove the claim that he could be a BETTER player if he were playing against better competition in a better league.

And I'm not sure how his broken nose has any bearing on this at all.

I agree with you on playing in Europe rather than playing in MLS. However, Dempsey wasn't getting better sitting on his butt at Spurs. I think most players would rather play than sit on their backside. Dempsey probably thought steady time in Seattle was a better option than playing sparingly at White Hart Lane.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Nobody said that sitting on the bench at Sunderland is better than playing in MLS. What Klinsmann said is that PLAYING in Europe is better than playing in MLS, and he's absolutely right about that. The fact that Dempsey made a poor decision to leave Fulham, got jerked around at Spurs (famous for buying lots of new shiny toys and then never finding a way to use them), and then wound up in Seattle does nothing to disprove this fact. And the fact that he's one of the best players in MLS does nothing to disprove the claim that he could be a BETTER player if he were playing against better competition in a better league.

And I'm not sure how his broken nose has any bearing on this at all.

I disagree that any team in Europe is better than playing MLS. Playing at Sunderland or Stoke and having to bunker in for 30 out of 38 games isn't any better than actually playing in MLS. And there are plenty of garbage teams in La Liga or Serie A or other leagues that would make Chivas USA look good. For example, Brek Shea and Tim Ream versus Zusi and Gonzalez, just playing in England doesn't make you better. And training doesn't mean much either or we'd be talking about how Kenny Cooper lead the US to the semis.

And the broken nose comes up because Klinsmann said Dempsey "lost some of his edge" moving to MLS.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

You know thinking about MLS, no one in MLS has an identity. Teams in Europe play a certain style and they stick with it. MLS teams play whatever style they can based on the personnel. In other words they get different types of players every year. How else do you get DC last one year and first the next. Plus it's a place for old european guys to retire to who can't hack europe any more. ( or guys like Bradley, same thing)

So I'm all in with Klinnsman on playing in Europe. MLS just is not good enough and it's not a development league for US players which it should be. They have a bunch of guys from South America. We have to change our development system if we are going to compete and get talent enough to be a factor in the WC.

 

[joecct]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

QPR and Liverpool played an extraordinary match. 2 own goals by QPR, one in the 94' gave Liverpool the 3 - 2 win.

 

[Rhett]

QPR and Liverpool played an extraordinary match. 2 own goals by QPR, one in the 94' gave Liverpool the 3 - 2 win.

Wow. When was a the last time QPR scored 4 goals in the EPL?

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

I'd normally be optimistic about Seattle's chances in this game but, this being Donovan's last home game, I'd be ecstatic with a draw.

And I'm fully expecting biased officiating, over/under on a SEA ejection is 35 minutes.

 

[joecct]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Don't cry for me in Argentina...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ntina-abandoned-after-brawl-and-12-red-cards/

 

[Jimjamesak]

I'd normally be optimistic about Seattle's chances in this game but, this being Donovan's last home game, I'd be ecstatic with a draw.

And I'm fully expecting biased officiating, over/under on a SEA ejection is 35 minutes.

Well, Seattle got a 2-2 draw and Omar Gonzalez got an ejection.

Seattle v LA for the Supporters Shield in Seattle on Saturday afternoon.

 

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

I agree with you on playing in Europe rather than playing in MLS. However, Dempsey wasn't getting better sitting on his butt at Spurs. I think most players would rather play than sit on their backside. Dempsey probably thought steady time in Seattle was a better option than playing sparingly at White Hart Lane.

This is a false choice, in that those aren't really the only two options.

I disagree that any team in Europe is better than playing MLS. Playing at Sunderland or Stoke and having to bunker in for 30 out of 38 games isn't any better than actually playing in MLS. And there are plenty of garbage teams in La Liga or Serie A or other leagues that would make Chivas USA look good. For example, Brek Shea and Tim Ream versus Zusi and Gonzalez, just playing in England doesn't make you better. And training doesn't mean much either or we'd be talking about how Kenny Cooper lead the US to the semis.

And the broken nose comes up because Klinsmann said Dempsey "lost some of his edge" moving to MLS.

OK, but "any team in Europe is better than playing MLS" is clearly not what I said or what Klinsmann was saying. Obviously you're better off in Seattle than playing for North Ferriby United in the Conference North, but that isn't really the situation we're talking about, is it? Dempsey got to be as good as he is got to be as good as he is because he was playing for a team like "Sunderland or Stoke" and having to bunker in sometimes, scrapping against the best defenders in the world and learning how to give as good as he got; do you really think he'd have developed into the player he is today if he'd never left the Revs? Would Tim Howard be the goalkeeper he is if he'd played his whole career for the Metros/Red Bulls? Never in a million years in either case. Shea is crap, but he was crap when he was in MLS too, he just didn't look it because the defenders are so much worse.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Hey, any player that voluntarily goes to Spurs you have to scratch your head about a bit, as Spurs are infamous in recent years for bringing in all sorts of folks before they figure out who they want to play or not. Dempsey should have stayed at Fulham or someone like that and he wouldn't have had the sitting on a bench issue he had at White Hart Lane.

 

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Hey, any player that voluntarily goes to Spurs you have to scratch your head about a bit, as Spurs are infamous in recent years for bringing in all sorts of folks before they figure out who they want to play or not. Dempsey should have stayed at Fulham or someone like that and he wouldn't have had the sitting on a bench issue he had at White Hart Lane.

You'll get no argument from me there.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Hey, any player that voluntarily goes to Spurs you have to scratch your head about a bit, as Spurs are infamous in recent years for bringing in all sorts of folks before they figure out who they want to play or not. Dempsey should have stayed at Fulham or someone like that and he wouldn't have had the sitting on a bench issue he had at White Hart Lane.

You'll get no argument from me there.

Yeah, no question about it.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

You'll get no argument from me there.

He might have been able to keep them up, IMHO.

 

[Jimjamesak]

This is a false choice, in that those aren't really the only two options.

OK, but "any team in Europe is better than playing MLS" is clearly not what I said or what Klinsmann was saying. Obviously you're better off in Seattle than playing for North Ferriby United in the Conference North, but that isn't really the situation we're talking about, is it? Dempsey got to be as good as he is got to be as good as he is because he was playing for a team like "Sunderland or Stoke" and having to bunker in sometimes, scrapping against the best defenders in the world and learning how to give as good as he got; do you really think he'd have developed into the player he is today if he'd never left the Revs? Would Tim Howard be the goalkeeper he is if he'd played his whole career for the Metros/Red Bulls? Never in a million years in either case. Shea is crap, but he was crap when he was in MLS too, he just didn't look it because the defenders are so much worse.

It's a different cases for different players. Also you cannot compare how things in MLS were 10 years (when they were still in survival mode) versus how things are now. Klinsman is talking about how things are now, where it is fair to ask if it is better to go to a lower EPL team or stay in MLS. 10 years ago this really wasn't an argument, learning to bunker in is what Americans had to do anyway. Now, we've progressed. We don't want to bunker in against teams. We to attack, to possess the ball. So why should we send our players to teams where the dominant style is bunker, boot, and pray?

MLS is at a point where it needs to start holding onto it's better players instead of selling to the highest bidder, it's the only way to increase the quality. And being a feeder league isn't really an option.

Basically, Klinsmann wants the status quo. Everybody plays in Europe because that's where everybody is. MLS wants to change the status quo in that it wants to be a destination for top players, and the way to start changing that is to have the top American players.

tl;dr You need to get out of the Eurocentric mindset.

 

[jmh]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

It's a different cases for different players. Also you cannot compare how things in MLS were 10 years (when they were still in survival mode) versus how things are now. Klinsman is talking about how things are now, where it is fair to ask if it is better to go to a lower EPL team or stay in MLS. 10 years ago this really wasn't an argument, learning to bunker in is what Americans had to do anyway. Now, we've progressed. We don't want to bunker in against teams. We to attack, to possess the ball. So why should we send our players to teams where the dominant style is bunker, boot, and pray.

The style has nothing to do with it. Even if you think MLS might at some point in the distant future be as strong as the Premier League or the Bundesliga, it clearly isn't now, and the players aren't going to get to be that level by playing against the weaker competition here. Playing for Sunderland and bunkering against Manchester United is better preparation for the World Cup than scoring a bunch of goals against Toronto FC.

He might have been able to keep them up, IMHO.

I wouldn't bet on it. Moussa Dembele maybe; Fulham's biggest problem (among many) last year was a complete inability to maintain any control in the midfield. The defenders had too much to do (so their weaknesses were exposed: Hangeland's lack of pace, Riether's tendency to get too far forward, Amorebieta's propensity to be overly aggressive, Senderos's general boneheadedness, Riise's general lack of interest in defending), and the attackers were starved of the ball (Ruiz, Berbatov and Taarabt were all scapegoated and shipped out in January, to no avail). On the other hand, having Dempsey around could've at least prevented the withered husk of Darren Bent from getting 24 league appearances on the strength of reputation alone. That probably would've helped at least some.

 

[Jimjamesak]

The style has nothing to do with it. Even if you think MLS might at some point in the distant future be as strong as the Premier League or the Bundesliga, it clearly isn't now, and the players aren't going to get to be that level by playing against the weaker competition here. Playing for Sunderland and bunkering against Manchester United is better preparation for the World Cup than scoring a bunch of goals against Toronto FC.I wouldn't bet on it. Moussa Dembele maybe; Fulham's biggest problem (among many) last year was a complete inability to maintain any control in the midfield. The defenders had too much to do (so their weaknesses were exposed: Hangeland's lack of pace, Riether's tendency to get too far forward, Amorebieta's propensity to be overly aggressive, Senderos's general boneheadedness, Riise's general lack of interest in defending), and the attackers were starved of the ball (Ruiz, Berbatov and Taarabt were all scapegoated and shipped out in January, to no avail). On the other hand, having Dempsey around could've at least prevented the withered husk of Darren Bent from getting 24 league appearances on the strength of reputation alone. That probably would've helped at least some.

Then how do you expect the league to get better if every decent player in this country runs off to Sunderland?

MLS isn't as bad as you people think. You guys would know that if you actually watched.

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

The point I'm making is that, for the National Team to get better, MLS must get better. MLS has to grow, has to grow their academies, has to grow their financial status. But the only way to do this is to increase the profile of the league. The only way to increase the profile of the league is to hold on to the better players.

It's obvious that Klinsmann isn't on board with this plan and that's wrong. It's Eurocentric thinking and an American team, or any CONCACAF team, can't have Eurocentric thinking. For the US to have success, it has to come from within. And that's not going to happen if we have this mindset of "if it's not Europe, then it's crap. MLS will destroy our players." No, that thinking will destroy the game in this country. It already is.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

Then how do you expect the league to get better if every decent player in this country runs off to Sunderland?

The league will get better when it attracts better talent, regardless of country of origin. That's all there is to it, and that's true across the board for every league on the planet.

The only high quality talent that MLS gets to have while they're in (or just out of) their prime is USMNT players. Granted, that's starting to change, and the talent that MLS is drawing is increasingly becoming more high-end, but it also still feels a bit like a retirement league for most of them. (Unless you want to say that Henry, Beckham, Kaka, Villa, Lampard, et al are all still in their prime as of when they came to MLS. Beckham and Villa at 32/33 is probably as close as we've had on that front)

 

[FreshFish]

Re: World Soccer XXV - the run up to the World Cup

The point I'm making is that, for the National Team to get better, MLS must get better. MLS has to grow, has to grow their academies, has to grow their financial status. But the only way to do this is to increase the profile of the league. The only way to increase the profile of the league is to hold on to the better players.

It's obvious that Klinsmann isn't on board with this plan and that's wrong.

It's not at all "obvious" that Klinsmann isn't on board. All he said was, at this given moment in time, I'd rather see our best players starting on teams that compete in the Champions League than anywhere else. MLS is not yet at that level. Then Garber said that the goal of MLS is also to be that good some day in the future.

It seems to me that they are probably very much in alignment when you factor in the difference in time frames. Klinsmann has also spoken about getting the best domestic talent at younger ages and then developing it better.