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Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

solovsfett said:
Exactly. Guys like Richter and Cujo iirc would come back to Madison to get their Howie fix.

Don’t know if there’s a guy like that out there but I would start with canvassing the guys who learned from him as a start point.
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Two problems with goalie coaches:
One, they can't be paid other than some misc. expenses and stuff. They are unpaid volunteers.
Two, they can't be in the business of coaching goalies, which is what the best goalie coaches do. Including Howie.

After Howie, WI tried to have former Badger (and now former Stars NHL goalie coach) Mike Valley take over, but his regular job was goalie camps and coaching goalies. The NCAA notified UW that he couldn't do it because of the likelihood of improper contact with recruits. They even then tried to have Shuey fill in as a stop gap, but his Team Wisconsin involvement precluded him too. Just to be clear, goalie coaches cannot recruit at all, or have any outside contact with potential recruits. They can of course watch tape and make recommendations.

With the addition of Goody to the staff, the Badgers are actually in a lot better shape than most all NCAA teams. Goody plus Sanger, who was just an outstanding goalie for CC, and the main man in the nets all four years. Incidentally, he was a freshman in Lucia's last year and CC won over 100 games while he was there. Plus he played 5 years in the pros and has been coaching goalies ever since. Maybe there's someone else somewhere that we can get to come in for FREE... and who doesn't coach young players anywhere... but is still better? ... it's hard to think of how we're going to find that person, though.
 
Wisko McBadgerton said:
Two problems with goalie coaches:
One, they can't be paid other than some misc. expenses and stuff. They are unpaid volunteers.
Two, they can't be in the business of coaching goalies, which is what the best goalie coaches do. Including Howie.

After Howie, WI tried to have former Badger (and now former Stars NHL goalie coach) Mike Valley take over, but his regular job was goalie camps and coaching goalies. The NCAA notified UW that he couldn't do it because of the likelihood of improper contact with recruits. They even then tried to have Shuey fill in as a stop gap, but his Team Wisconsin involvement precluded him too. Just to be clear, goalie coaches cannot recruit at all, or have any outside contact with potential recruits. They can of course watch tape and make recommendations.

With the addition of Goody to the staff, the Badgers are actually in a lot better shape than most all NCAA teams. Goody plus Sanger, who was just an outstanding goalie for CC, and the main man in the nets all four years. Incidentally, he was a freshman in Lucia's last year and CC won over 100 games while he was there. Plus he played 5 years in the pros and has been coaching goalies ever since. Maybe there's someone else somewhere that we can get to come in for FREE... and who doesn't coach young players anywhere... but is still better? ... it's hard to think of how we're going to find that person, though.
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I’m not sure I understand the point. The goalies both last year and this year showed no improvement whatsoever.
Prior to that i’d say empirical evidence suggests uw goaltending has suffered since Howie was pushed out by Eaves.

Working for free or not Sanger does nothing for me. No stand out goalies in the pipeline and those that have arrived do not improve over time.
I guess we disagree on this one.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

solovsfett said:
I’m not sure I understand the point. The goalies both last year and this year showed no improvement whatsoever.
Prior to that i’d say empirical evidence suggests uw goaltending has suffered since Howie was pushed out by Eaves.

Working for free or not Sanger does nothing for me. No stand out goalies in the pipeline and those that have arrived do not improve over time.
I guess we disagree on this one.
Click to expand...

We don't disagree entirely. Howie was unquestionably one of the best goalie coaches anywhere and for 30+ years he ran goaltending camps and clinics all over North America. Which is what all the current best goaltending coaches in the world (outside of NCAA volunteers) also do. At these camps Howie would evaluate and then recruit the very best goaltenders. But no one can do what Howie did anymore.

The situation now is that Sanger does not run elite camps or recruit goaltenders. Why? Because volunteer coaches are not allowed by the NCAA to have personal contact with potential student athletes. Sanger's position is deemed essentially the same as a booster when it comes to potential recruits.

Like Mike Valley was doing prior to being hired by the Dallas Stars, the best goalie coaches all teach goaltending to young players at camps and clinics for substantial fees. Those guys are ALL EXCLUDED from becoming volunteer coaches at UW. The only way they can is to STOP GETTING PAID for teaching goaltending, stop running or teaching at camps, and do it all for FREE at UW. And then when they do that, they still cannot recruit goaltenders.

The suggestion is we should find a guy to get Howie-like results while not being able to do most all of the things Howie was allowed to do to get those results. And also do so while not being allowed to earn any money connected with his expertise. I seriously doubt that guy exists. That's also Sanger's situation and I do find some of the criticism of him not being Howie is unfair in that regard.

The only way to make it work in a way even in the neighborhood of the way it did with Howie is to hire a goaltending coach as one of the two paid assistants. But keep in mind that skater recruiting and teaching is very likely to suffer from the loss of an assistant dedicated to teaching and recruiting the 20+ skaters you need vs. the 2 regular goalies. So pick your poison.
 
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Wisko McBadgerton said:
We don't disagree entirely. Howie was unquestionably one of the best goalie coaches anywhere and for 30+ years he ran goaltending camps and clinics all over North America. Which is what all the current best goaltending coaches in the world (outside of NCAA volunteers) also do. At these camps Howie would evaluate and then recruit the very best goaltenders. But no one can do what Howie did anymore.

The situation now is that Sanger does not run elite camps or recruit goaltenders. Why? Because volunteer coaches are not allowed by the NCAA to have personal contact with potential student athletes. Sanger's position is deemed essentially the same as a booster when it comes to potential recruits.

Like Mike Valley was doing prior to being hired by the Dallas Stars, the best goalie coaches all teach goaltending to young players at camps and clinics for substantial fees. Those guys are ALL EXCLUDED from becoming volunteer coaches at UW. The only way they can is to STOP GETTING PAID for teaching goaltending, stop running or teaching at camps, and do it all for FREE at UW. And then when they do that, they still cannot recruit goaltenders.

The suggestion is we should find a guy to get Howie-like results while not being able to do most all of the things Howie was allowed to do to get those results. And also do so while not being allowed to earn any money connected with his expertise. I seriously doubt that guy exists. That's also Sanger's situation and I do find some of the criticism of him not being Howie is unfair in that regard.

The only way to make it work in a way even in the neighborhood of the way it did with Howie is to hire a goaltending coach as one of the two paid assistants. But keep in mind that skater recruiting and teaching is very likely to suffer from the loss of an assistant dedicated to teaching and recruiting the 20+ skaters you need vs. the 2 regular goalies. So pick your poison.
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Interesting, so does basketball, football or baseball have coaches that are forced by rule to work or offer coaching free and are coaching the most important position on a team?

This is all kinds of ****ed up.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

solovsfett said:
I’m not sure I understand the point. The goalies both last year and this year showed no improvement whatsoever.
Prior to that i’d say empirical evidence suggests uw goaltending has suffered since Howie was pushed out by Eaves.

Working for free or not Sanger does nothing for me. No stand out goalies in the pipeline and those that have arrived do not improve over time.
I guess we disagree on this one.
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No offense to Sanger, but I agree with Solo on this. Anyone could see this year, they were going down early. And every team was scouting us to have their guys shoot high. Why this wasn't fixed I don't understand.
 
WiscTJK said:
No offense to Sanger, but I agree with Solo on this. Anyone could see this year, they were going down early. And every team was scouting us to have their guys shoot high. Why this wasn't fixed I don't understand.
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That’s what upsets me the most. The coaches can see it of course, even the radio guys mentioned especially re: Hayton, the book on him was shoot high.

Yet nothing changed with regard to on ie performance over the year. Iirc they also said Hayton wasn’t waiting long enough to force the shooter to make the first move.

It’s been really tough to watch this. Even when we had what I would all an average to good goalie in the past Howie pushed them to another level. Daubenspeck comes to mind in that regard.
 
WiscTJK said:
No offense to Sanger, but I agree with Solo on this. Anyone could see this year, they were going down early. And every team was scouting us to have their guys shoot high. Why this wasn't fixed I don't understand.
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I agree as well. I don't care how good his PLAYING stats are. How successful was Bart Starr as a coach? Wayne Gretzky? How many others were great PLAYERS but lousy coaches? A good player isn't automatically a good coach.
 
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solovsfett said:
Interesting, so does basketball, football or baseball have coaches that are forced by rule to work or offer coaching free and are coaching the most important position on a team?

This is all kinds of ****ed up.
Click to expand...

That’s the NCAA for you. They limit hockey programs to three paid coaches who can be on the ice with the players. This the trade-off that programs have to make.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

Can Mark GreenHaulgh from the women's team cross over and help with the men's team, even on a limited basis? The women's game a is slower game but the concepts are the same. He is a genius with the women's team.

Who was the goalie coach for Rumpel and Petersen? Valley or Sanger?
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

Timothy A said:
Can Mark GreenHaulgh from the women's team cross over and help with the men's team, even on a limited basis? The women's game a is slower game but the concepts are the same. He is a genius with the women's team.

Who was the goalie coach for Rumpel and Petersen? Valley or Sanger?
Click to expand...

Valley was done before he started. In 2008 the NCAA changed and clarified some of the rules for volunteer coaches, especially in regards to recruiting practices. (Is it coincidence that was Howie's last year? I don't know.) '08-'09 the Badgers didn't have a regular volunteer goalie coach as UW was told Valley wouldn't be in compliance unless he gave up all his other coaching activities. Sanger came in the next year and handled Goody to the title game in '10 and a statistically even better year in '11. (along with highly touted transfer Brett Bennett. In retrospect, bringing Bennett on transfer kind of screwed things up as prior, UW usually managed to mostly have two studs, two years apart) Next in was Petey and Rumps, both of whom were handled excellently IMO. Rumps was good as a freshman, but stellar as a sophomore, and a Richter and Hobey finalist his Jr. year. Rumps senior year though, is a good example of how a great goalie can only do so much behind a bad team.

Next up was Opilka, who bolted to Canada and the pros late and never came in. (Unfortunately, injuries now have Opilka's career in limbo) That left UW scrambling and grabbing Jurusik and then Berry very late. Which Sanger has nothing to do with. Can't go their games, cannot even watch tape on prospects and give an evaluation. Can't talk to prospects at all unless they are on their Official Visit, or they have signed an NLI. No recruiting related activities, period. Paid staff has to handle all evaluation and recruiting.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

Timothy A said:
Can Mark GreenHaulgh from the women's team cross over and help with the men's team, even on a limited basis? The women's game a is slower game but the concepts are the same. He is a genius with the women's team.

Who was the goalie coach for Rumpel and Petersen? Valley or Sanger?
Click to expand...

Well Tim, I did a little research during lunch and here are UW's recent goalie coaches.
Forever - 2008 Bill Howard
2008 - 2009 Mike Valley, though he was not here long as he had a conflict of interest with his goalie camps.
2009 - current Jeff Sanger. Prior to this Sanger worked with the UW women during their title run in 2006-2007.

Seeing as Sanger has been @ UW for this long and worked with a lot of goalies, including Rumpel and Petersen, I would say that he has not suddenly forgot how to coach. I do believe it points us back at a talent issue, which is no fault of the current or recent former players at all. They got offered a scholarship and took it, good for them.

I wonder if Howie ran into or would have ran into the same conflict of interest that Valley did.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

solovsfett said:
Interesting, so does basketball, football or baseball have coaches that are forced by rule to work or offer coaching free and are coaching the most important position on a team?

This is all kinds of ****ed up.
Click to expand...

I believe in football they have grad assistants, that may be unpaid.
 
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

Spreadsheet updated with Corson Ceulemans committing to the Badgers.

Considering he is 14, I have him as a '22-'23.
 
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