Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
The JV will be national JV champs for sure.
The JV will be national JV champs for sure.
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Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
- Thread starter gwhinwi
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Gurtholfin
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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
Yeah... it is.
Hockey is an incredibly small world.
Yeah... it is.
Hockey is an incredibly small world.
Aren't they all 16yr olds on the Under 17 team? The 17 yr olds are on the U18 team, while the 18 yr olds are in juniors.
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
LOL, because every verbal commit ends up on campus (they all continue to develop into D1 caliber players, none go to Major Junior, none change their own mind and want to go elsewhere), every player stays to their senior year (none are ever an academic/criminal/injury casualty, none ever go pro, none ever don't like their role on a team and transfer), and every kid on a spreadsheet 2 or 3 years out that might be coming comes in their 18 year old season and doesn't spend a year or two playing junior.
In case you are being serious (or if you weren't but someone else reads this and doesn't quite get how things work) here's a little breakdown of the Badgers 20/21 fortunes. First, at this point I don't see the Peltonen brothers at Wisconsin...the Dman is an interesting prospect but with a deep stable of guys in front of him...I would suspect a greener pasture is better for all involved, and the brother that is a forward is playing NAHL in his 19 year old season. Second, guys that are drafted don't usually make it to their senior seasons in college as their drafting teams don't like risking assets they spent a draft pick on for nothing as players can exercise their option for free agency in the summer after their senior year. That reality makes the likelihood of any of Weissbach, Kalynuk, Ess, or Inamoto playing in 20/21 as seniors that were drafted not all that good. Next, teams that bring in talent that gets selected in the first few rounds of the draft are lucky to get a season or two at best out of those players before they move on to pro. I've seen K'Andre Miller, Turcotte, and the younger Caufield in first round mock drafts, Sampo Ranta is a grade A in Central Scouting's last update, and Emberson and the Krygier's are all B rated. Several of these guys will not be playing what would be their junior year (or sophomore season in the case of Caufield/Turcotte). Last, guys like Koufis, Lavelle, and even Leyh will all be actual college freshman based on their academic class which is still a little unusual to have kids go straight from high school to college hockey and skip a year or even 2 of junior A. Hopefully all these guys are that good, but realistically one or even 2 won't be.
There is a fine line between the dark days of the Eaves Era where a guy like Dougherty bails and your pipeline doesn't have anything you can fall back on and you end up scrambling into a Jake Bunz or Opilka bails and you end up with Jurusik having to play virtually every minute in net as an 18 year old and having a pipeline with enough talent to be in the mix nationally every year.
LOL, because every verbal commit ends up on campus (they all continue to develop into D1 caliber players, none go to Major Junior, none change their own mind and want to go elsewhere), every player stays to their senior year (none are ever an academic/criminal/injury casualty, none ever go pro, none ever don't like their role on a team and transfer), and every kid on a spreadsheet 2 or 3 years out that might be coming comes in their 18 year old season and doesn't spend a year or two playing junior.
In case you are being serious (or if you weren't but someone else reads this and doesn't quite get how things work) here's a little breakdown of the Badgers 20/21 fortunes. First, at this point I don't see the Peltonen brothers at Wisconsin...the Dman is an interesting prospect but with a deep stable of guys in front of him...I would suspect a greener pasture is better for all involved, and the brother that is a forward is playing NAHL in his 19 year old season. Second, guys that are drafted don't usually make it to their senior seasons in college as their drafting teams don't like risking assets they spent a draft pick on for nothing as players can exercise their option for free agency in the summer after their senior year. That reality makes the likelihood of any of Weissbach, Kalynuk, Ess, or Inamoto playing in 20/21 as seniors that were drafted not all that good. Next, teams that bring in talent that gets selected in the first few rounds of the draft are lucky to get a season or two at best out of those players before they move on to pro. I've seen K'Andre Miller, Turcotte, and the younger Caufield in first round mock drafts, Sampo Ranta is a grade A in Central Scouting's last update, and Emberson and the Krygier's are all B rated. Several of these guys will not be playing what would be their junior year (or sophomore season in the case of Caufield/Turcotte). Last, guys like Koufis, Lavelle, and even Leyh will all be actual college freshman based on their academic class which is still a little unusual to have kids go straight from high school to college hockey and skip a year or even 2 of junior A. Hopefully all these guys are that good, but realistically one or even 2 won't be.
There is a fine line between the dark days of the Eaves Era where a guy like Dougherty bails and your pipeline doesn't have anything you can fall back on and you end up scrambling into a Jake Bunz or Opilka bails and you end up with Jurusik having to play virtually every minute in net as an 18 year old and having a pipeline with enough talent to be in the mix nationally every year.
It's all by birth year, so the late birthdays turn 16 early in the season, and the early birthdays will turn 17 early in the new calendar year. Cole Caufield is the oldest player on the U17 roster.
Everyone understands exactly what Wisconsin is doing - and not everyone finds the Badger strategy particularly ethical in spite of markwojo's long winded explanation nor the anticipated response of 'everyone is doing it'...
The staff is gobbling up as many commits as they can, taking them off the market for other schools with no intention of any real level of commitment on schools end. In many cases the continued, private evaluation has resulted in lesser scholarships than originally agreed upon, pulled offers and recruits replaced when better options become available.
I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the kids know what they're getting into or what's right in recruiting today. Well disagree and it's not worth my time. But don't pretend you don't know exactly what's really going on and act shocked when it raises eyebrows around the country...
You guys may love it. Others like Lemonade do not. Do you need his validation for some reason??
The key to this strategy is to drop the right recruits! I hope for your sake, the kids you've dumped lately work out better than dumping Gildon has...
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solovsfett
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Gurtholfin
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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
So you're going to completely ignore a key component to the situation?
The whole thing is a racket on both sides.
The crap I've seen from players and families is certainly equal to the crap I've seen from coaches and organizations.
All are trying to get what's best for themselves.
So you're going to completely ignore a key component to the situation?
The whole thing is a racket on both sides.
The crap I've seen from players and families is certainly equal to the crap I've seen from coaches and organizations.
All are trying to get what's best for themselves.
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
Its about intent and integrity. I fully understand the dynamics of todays dog eat dog recruiting wars. Players can and will decommit based on their situations and schools will push off players they are no longer interested in. Historically, its been a gentlemans agreement that a school would offer and a kid commits and they are bound by their word. Things change, coaches change, players change....understood. Based on stats roughly 10% of kids will decommit for a variety of reasons. However - what Wisconsin is doing is blatant over recruiting. With 18 scholarships and roughly 24 roster spots Wisconsin is banking on a 37% decommit rate? That takes into consideration that Wisconsin wont commit any more players for the next 2 years! What Wisconsin is doing isnt stockpiling its misleading/shady and will result in a lot of kids out of spots. Sorry to rain on your commitment parade buts that the honest take on it.
Its about intent and integrity. I fully understand the dynamics of todays dog eat dog recruiting wars. Players can and will decommit based on their situations and schools will push off players they are no longer interested in. Historically, its been a gentlemans agreement that a school would offer and a kid commits and they are bound by their word. Things change, coaches change, players change....understood. Based on stats roughly 10% of kids will decommit for a variety of reasons. However - what Wisconsin is doing is blatant over recruiting. With 18 scholarships and roughly 24 roster spots Wisconsin is banking on a 37% decommit rate? That takes into consideration that Wisconsin wont commit any more players for the next 2 years! What Wisconsin is doing isnt stockpiling its misleading/shady and will result in a lot of kids out of spots. Sorry to rain on your commitment parade buts that the honest take on it.
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No, as I stated ("we'll disagree"), I disagree with you. That may be true in a few individual cases, but it's often just rationalization from coaches (or fans) who want to excuse their own behavior. I live in the recruiting world - this behavior is not what you get from most kids/families. It just isn't. No matter what you want to think or have seen in isolated instances.
They may not have dumped an Osiecki recruit yet - but they will if they continue with this current pace and process. Their plan is quite simply birds in the hand while they look through the bush. Again, if that's ok with you guys great. Others may not feel like giving them the same credit for hanging onto Eaves recruits for two years as insurance policies while they actively search for their own players. It's knowing you want to, but not actually dumping your GF while hitting on other women in a conscious attempt to find someone better...
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G
Gurtholfin
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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
Do you believe that the players and their families don't understand this?
Do you believe that they aren't actively working on backup plans or looking for other, better offers?
Again... hockey is an incredibly small world. If word gets out that Wisconsin is treating players ****tier than everyone else, players won't come here. Gone are the days that kids grow up with their heart set on a specific program and will take a lot of crap for the opportunity.
Sure, there are some like Mersch, but he's an anomaly in this day and age from what I've experienced. There is no loyalty on either side anymore.
Do you believe that the players and their families don't understand this?
Do you believe that they aren't actively working on backup plans or looking for other, better offers?
Again... hockey is an incredibly small world. If word gets out that Wisconsin is treating players ****tier than everyone else, players won't come here. Gone are the days that kids grow up with their heart set on a specific program and will take a lot of crap for the opportunity.
Sure, there are some like Mersch, but he's an anomaly in this day and age from what I've experienced. There is no loyalty on either side anymore.
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
If by longwinded you mean real reasons the "massive" numbers are not even remotely as massive as some want to pretend....then thanks.
I'll try with a little less wind, and specifically address the "horrible" projected 11 dmen for 20/21. Peltonen hasn't signed a LOI and I have my doubts he ever ends up at UW now that the Krygier's have (why would he come to UW to be behind what he is going to be behind to get on the ice and actually play?)...so 11 very well may now be 10. Ess, Inamoto, and Kalynuk would all be seniors that have been drafted...again not unicorn rare but not that many guys drafted actually play their senior year. K'Andre Miller is being projected as a late first or early 2nd round pick and would be entering his junior year at UW for 20/21....again probably better odds he doesn't return for his junior year then he does. Emberson and the Krygier's all also look to be drafted and would be going into their junior years so hardly a given that they all make it to that point. Roepke will be 18 years old....which again not impossible he plays college hockey in 20/21 but probably less likely he is playing junior A. Now add in academic, criminal or injury issues on top of that. Mix in a Canadian junior team being influen$ial and perhaps some of these kids never even setting foot on campus or if they don't adapt as well as everyone tells them they should they bolt (cause we've never seen kids leave in the middle of their freshman season) or an NHL team that drafts them not being fond of the college developmental path and whispering in their ear a "better" path.
To argue taking someone "off the market" is absurd and if you are serious then 1980 called and want's its logic back. We saw first hand how off the market Hagemo and Wiercioch were (and that was a decade ago now) and just this past week didn't the first anyone knew of Guttman flipping from SCSU to Denver is a tweet of him signing his LOI? There is no gentleman's agreement and hasn't been for a while.
Coaches are in the business of winning and players are in the business of getting the best circumstances for themselves (best scholarship package/percentage, best level of team, etc) and sometimes those intersect and sometime they don't work out.
On Gildon, I don't know that that was anything exclusive to a pure hockey decision or purely something from the UW coaching staff either...but hope it continues to work out well for all involved...Max, UNH, the Florida Panthers, UW, whoever got a chance to play at UW in his stead.
If by longwinded you mean real reasons the "massive" numbers are not even remotely as massive as some want to pretend....then thanks.
I'll try with a little less wind, and specifically address the "horrible" projected 11 dmen for 20/21. Peltonen hasn't signed a LOI and I have my doubts he ever ends up at UW now that the Krygier's have (why would he come to UW to be behind what he is going to be behind to get on the ice and actually play?)...so 11 very well may now be 10. Ess, Inamoto, and Kalynuk would all be seniors that have been drafted...again not unicorn rare but not that many guys drafted actually play their senior year. K'Andre Miller is being projected as a late first or early 2nd round pick and would be entering his junior year at UW for 20/21....again probably better odds he doesn't return for his junior year then he does. Emberson and the Krygier's all also look to be drafted and would be going into their junior years so hardly a given that they all make it to that point. Roepke will be 18 years old....which again not impossible he plays college hockey in 20/21 but probably less likely he is playing junior A. Now add in academic, criminal or injury issues on top of that. Mix in a Canadian junior team being influen$ial and perhaps some of these kids never even setting foot on campus or if they don't adapt as well as everyone tells them they should they bolt (cause we've never seen kids leave in the middle of their freshman season) or an NHL team that drafts them not being fond of the college developmental path and whispering in their ear a "better" path.
To argue taking someone "off the market" is absurd and if you are serious then 1980 called and want's its logic back. We saw first hand how off the market Hagemo and Wiercioch were (and that was a decade ago now) and just this past week didn't the first anyone knew of Guttman flipping from SCSU to Denver is a tweet of him signing his LOI? There is no gentleman's agreement and hasn't been for a while.
Coaches are in the business of winning and players are in the business of getting the best circumstances for themselves (best scholarship package/percentage, best level of team, etc) and sometimes those intersect and sometime they don't work out.
On Gildon, I don't know that that was anything exclusive to a pure hockey decision or purely something from the UW coaching staff either...but hope it continues to work out well for all involved...Max, UNH, the Florida Panthers, UW, whoever got a chance to play at UW in his stead.
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solovsfett
Registered User
No-one anywhere in hockey has intimated that Tony Granato isn't a character guy. Same for Oseicki. Mark O has done this once before already and his recruiting tactics that helped build the badgers in the mid-2000's have returned and guess what? Star players are coming. No-one but a few fans of opposing teams here are doubting Mark or saying his tactics are shady.
Pretty sure Oseicki is open about their rebuild/maintain plans
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
Putting aside for the moment whether Oseicki is a shady recruiter or not, coaches who do recruit using shady tactics continue to do so for one reason - because they can get away with it. Every year there is a fresh batch of recruits, who believe getting a scholarship pulled is something that will never happen to them. If they, or their parents, do ask about the coaches' history it is brushed aside as that past recruit not living up to their end of the bargain and it will never happen to the current prospect! The idea that coaches end up paying the price for these tactics is another recruiting myth, quite frankly. And I don't say this as a spiteful, rival fan - just as someone who takes an interest in recruiting tactics and processes. Ive also made clear, in this very thread, what I think of UNH manipulating NLIs...
Jim Montgomery may not acknowledge the gentlemen's agreement (and as a DU season ticket holder, I despise what he did), but it sure seems like Bob Motzko does. The practice of respecting another school's commitments remains in place in the eyes of 90% of college hockey coaches. The ones pushing to remove the agreement - because they care so deeply about the wrongs of early recruiting (cough, cough Bulls...) - are the ones who don't want to be bad mouthed when they poach recruits or have to suffer with their own poor evaluations. This is more rationalization for the bad behavior in the business. As for your plan for early departures amongst the D-corp, etc. If thats how it plays out then there are no problems, but thats not how its played out for more than a few UW recruits.
Again, we all know whats happening. If you're OK with it, thats fine. But the sky is blue, don't tell me its green...
Putting aside for the moment whether Oseicki is a shady recruiter or not, coaches who do recruit using shady tactics continue to do so for one reason - because they can get away with it. Every year there is a fresh batch of recruits, who believe getting a scholarship pulled is something that will never happen to them. If they, or their parents, do ask about the coaches' history it is brushed aside as that past recruit not living up to their end of the bargain and it will never happen to the current prospect! The idea that coaches end up paying the price for these tactics is another recruiting myth, quite frankly. And I don't say this as a spiteful, rival fan - just as someone who takes an interest in recruiting tactics and processes. Ive also made clear, in this very thread, what I think of UNH manipulating NLIs...
Jim Montgomery may not acknowledge the gentlemen's agreement (and as a DU season ticket holder, I despise what he did), but it sure seems like Bob Motzko does. The practice of respecting another school's commitments remains in place in the eyes of 90% of college hockey coaches. The ones pushing to remove the agreement - because they care so deeply about the wrongs of early recruiting (cough, cough Bulls...) - are the ones who don't want to be bad mouthed when they poach recruits or have to suffer with their own poor evaluations. This is more rationalization for the bad behavior in the business. As for your plan for early departures amongst the D-corp, etc. If thats how it plays out then there are no problems, but thats not how its played out for more than a few UW recruits.
Again, we all know whats happening. If you're OK with it, thats fine. But the sky is blue, don't tell me its green...
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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
The ones that want to keep the gentleman's agreement are the ones that are scared the big schools will steal from them when the kid turns into something everybody wants. Sorry! There's a reason we still call SCSU Jan Brady State University. "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" You can whine all you want about a lost recruit but it won't change what happened. You're doing fine on the ice. Enjoy it.
The ones that want to keep the gentleman's agreement are the ones that are scared the big schools will steal from them when the kid turns into something everybody wants. Sorry! There's a reason we still call SCSU Jan Brady State University. "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" You can whine all you want about a lost recruit but it won't change what happened. You're doing fine on the ice. Enjoy it.
WiscTJK
Well-known member
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
Why don't you trolls just stick to your own teams thread? And you said you don't want to argue then just keep going on and on.
Dan you might despise what Monty did, but I'm sure you love the results and the winning at DU. If you truly despise it so much you should stand by your principals and give up your season tickets.
Why don't you trolls just stick to your own teams thread? And you said you don't want to argue then just keep going on and on.
Dan you might despise what Monty did, but I'm sure you love the results and the winning at DU. If you truly despise it so much you should stand by your principals and give up your season tickets.
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
Quite the historian on UW recruiting and guys going pro early. You might actually trying doing some research on Oz's first go around at UW....hint more guys he brought in on D went pro early then sniffed a 4th year (and I am talking about actual recruited scholarship dmen although the track record of partial scholarship/depth guys is also pretty impressive).
Quite the historian on UW recruiting and guys going pro early. You might actually trying doing some research on Oz's first go around at UW....hint more guys he brought in on D went pro early then sniffed a 4th year (and I am talking about actual recruited scholarship dmen although the track record of partial scholarship/depth guys is also pretty impressive).
Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
Because I find this to be an interesting topic and enjoy the conversation. You don't need to respond, others have. If I wanted to troll or argue, believe me I could troll...
As for my principals, I'm not a DU fan (or SCSU). I'm just a season ticket holder. I live in Denver and enjoy college hockey - even outside of my own teams threads! If I lived in Madison, I'd be a UW season ticket holder - despite Oseicki leading the recruiting (oops, trolling!)...
Because I find this to be an interesting topic and enjoy the conversation. You don't need to respond, others have. If I wanted to troll or argue, believe me I could troll...
As for my principals, I'm not a DU fan (or SCSU). I'm just a season ticket holder. I live in Denver and enjoy college hockey - even outside of my own teams threads! If I lived in Madison, I'd be a UW season ticket holder - despite Oseicki leading the recruiting (oops, trolling!)...
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Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!
I believe you. And as I said, if thats how it works out this time than there is no problem for the D. I wasn't talking about Oz's first go around, when I said thats not how it played out for others...
I believe you. And as I said, if thats how it works out this time than there is no problem for the D. I wasn't talking about Oz's first go around, when I said thats not how it played out for others...
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