Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

[Scottyp]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

I think people are somewhat missing the point solovsfett was making. Yes, from late December on, the season was successful. Its been a magical run, full of drama right up to winning the conference tourney. They played with heart, passion, and it was special. They can do some major damage in the tourney the way they are playing, and I am psyched to watch. That being said, lets not forget the 2 and 1/2 years of terrible hockey this team played to get to that position last December. Where did we finish the last two years in the WCHA? 10th? And the league was weak last year too. And then we start out 1-7-3? Yes I understand Kerdiles and Zengerle were out. But are we really just two players away from finishing below Michigan Tech and Bemidji in the WCHA? Is our margin of error that small? And lets not forget we're no longer in the WCHA anymore, were now BIG Ten. We will no longer have 12 - 16 conference games against MT, Bemidji, Anchorage, and MSU every year. That means LAST PLACE in the BIG Ten 2 out of every 4 years?

Yes, if you look at where we were in December this year is a success. We got to where we expected to be. We had to be the best team in college hockey over the last three months and win our tourney to do it, but we did it. The fact we had to work so hard to do it tarnishes it. A run in the tourney could change that. So while its great to be excited for them now, I agree with solo that we need to keep the bigger picture in mind.

 

[riverchief1]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

Glad we know how to **** you off now

After Friday, you'll wish you had played UMass and not Lowell.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

I think people are somewhat missing the point solovsfett was making. Yes, from late December on, the season was successful. Its been a magical run, full of drama right up to winning the conference tourney. They played with heart, passion, and it was special. They can do some major damage in the tourney the way they are playing, and I am psyched to watch. That being said, lets not forget the 2 and 1/2 years of terrible hockey this team played to get to that position last December. Where did we finish the last two years in the WCHA? 10th? And the league was weak last year too. And then we start out 1-7-3? Yes I understand Kerdiles and Zengerle were out. But are we really just two players away from finishing below Michigan Tech and Bemidji in the WCHA? Is our margin of error that small? And lets not forget we're no longer in the WCHA anymore, were now BIG Ten. We will no longer have 12 - 16 conference games against MT, Bemidji, Anchorage, and MSU every year. That means LAST PLACE in the BIG Ten 2 out of every 4 years?

Yes, if you look at where we were in December this year is a success. We got to where we expected to be. We had to be the best team in college hockey over the last three months and win our tourney to do it, but we did it. The fact we had to work so hard to do it tarnishes it. A run in the tourney could change that. So while its great to be excited for them now, I agree with solo that we need to keep the bigger picture in mind.

So this season isn't a success because of the results of the last 2 seasons? That's the argument that you want to make? At least solovsfett was willing to say that he doesn't care about conference hardware and any season UW doesn't make the Frozen 4 is not a success. That's his opinion, he's wrong, but that's his issue.

I still think that their are structural issues that need to be addressed to get UW off this 4 year rollercoaster that they have been on under Eaves. I may not have made things clear I never doubted his ability to actually coach, what I have questioned (and continue to question) is his ability/experience act as the GM of the Wisconsin Badger program. Far to many players are brought in by Eaves the GM when they are clearly unready to contribute under Eaves the Coach's system from day 1. It isn't that big of deal when you have one guy like that a class, but it seams that every 4 years Eaves the GM brings in a class full of those player and we go through growing pains as Eaves the Coach builds those players up to where they can perform in his system.

Thus, if (when?) the bottom falls out after next season (or next season depending on any early departures) the seat under Eaves will get very hot, very quickly.

 

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

After Friday, you'll wish you had played UMass and not Lowell.

The trap takes no prisoners. You have been warned.

 

[Scottyp]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

So this season isn't a success because of the results of the last 2 seasons? That's the argument that you want to make? At least solovsfett was willing to say that he doesn't care about conference hardware and any season UW doesn't make the Frozen 4 is not a success. That's his opinion, he's wrong, but that's his issue.

I still think that their are structural issues that need to be addressed to get UW off this 4 year rollercoaster that they have been on under Eaves. I may not have made things clear I never doubted his ability to actually coach, what I have questioned (and continue to question) is his ability/experience act as the GM of the Wisconsin Badger program. Far to many players are brought in by Eaves the GM when they are clearly unready to contribute under Eaves the Coach's system from day 1. It isn't that big of deal when you have one guy like that a class, but it seams that every 4 years Eaves the GM brings in a class full of those player and we go through growing pains as Eaves the Coach builds those players up to where they can perform in his system.

Thus, if (when?) the bottom falls out after next season (or next season depending on any early departures) the seat under Eaves will get very hot, very quickly.

I'm confused by your post. I never said this season isnt a success because of the results of the last two seasons. I said how we did it tarnishes it somewhat. And I am essentially agreeing with your entire second and third paragraph. I am also going further to say next year will be more difficult in the BIG Ten, because if we continue this 4 year rollercoaster we going to finish in last place every couple of years. And I hope everyone would agree that IS unacceptable.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

I never said this season isnt a success because of the results of the last two seasons. I said how we did it tarnishes it somewhat.

How Wisconsin got to this point is what MAKES this season a success. There isn't a program in the country that went through the kind of early season turmoil that this one did. For Wisconsin to bounce back from that and go on the run that they did, losing just five games over its past 31, and winning the Broadmoor is pretty incredible.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

Sure, I've been to the kohl center. I know a ton of people who have had to drop season tickets or reduce attendance for financial reasons. Basketball attendance is down, and they have 5times the built in fanbase. A generan of new grads, the driver of New ticket sales, can't get a job. But its all eaves fault.

5 of 7 years? Why not count this year? 05 and 06? Eaves has more title wins in his tenure than Sauer did in the comparable term at the end of his tenure, but you want to ignore 06 and 10. It's all eaves fault. Despite the fact that this team hasn't been as good as you claim it has to be in nearly 30 years. He probably time traveled.

This team does need to improve. It needs to be more consistent. The classes have to be evened out. But to pretend that all problems are.eaves fault or that he can't coach is just as stupid as claiming that none of the problems are his fault or that he's the greatest coach ever.

And yes, I do question those of you who've let your hatred of eaves overwhelm your support of the team on the ice. This team did not just get hot for half a season, it played great after an awful start with suspension, injury, and coaching change. A number of you were rooting for a loss. That's unacceptable in my book.

Who exactly is not supporting the team on the ice? Who was rooting for a loss? Don't confuse banter with other posters as reality. When I was at the Duluth series, do you think I was rooting for losses?

I put my pocketbook on the line with this program every season and to continually diminishing returns. I'm invested monetarily and heavily invested emotionally.

I always love it when people who have opinions that others disagree with are told that they're not real fans or they should go root for "fill in the blank." Always the easy way out. As if being a "good fan" means that you have to accept everything about the team without question.


You say you know people who dropped their tickets due to financial concerns? Great. I know several who are just bored with it all and who know if they want to go to an occasional game, they can just pick up tix to that game easily because half of the 200s are no longer bought up and there are always people who are willing to dump their 100s.

I've never said it was all Eaves' fault, but a significant body of work can be looked back at now and the overall results are unacceptable by what UW standards should be. It'd be one thing if this just happened after the '10 run, but the (almost) exact same thing happened after '06. That's not an accident and it's almost a trend.

Now he's probably bought himself a couple of years to get his **** together. I hope he does. Not because I like him or because you want me to, but because that is what would be best for the program and that is what would keep me from having to suffer through several losing seasons - which is what would have to happen to get him canned now.

The question at some point becomes, how long does he get to sort it all out. He's had a long time already. What evidence is there that he's gonna figure it out? Why didn't he do a better job after 2010 than he did after 2006?


To say that any of us aren't supporting the team through this though is asinine. I can love the team and live and die with them while simultaneously disliking the coach and thinking that he is a big part of the problem.

I did that for Duh-lema's entire run here as well as the second half of Alvarez's.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

Incorrect.

Cute.

We shouldn't have made it as an under .500 team and the fact that we did doesn't excuse the fact that we were under .500.

I wouldn't point to that season as anything for Eaves to be proud of.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

Cute.

We shouldn't have made it as an under .500 team and the fact that we did doesn't excuse the fact that we were under .500.

I wouldn't point to that season as anything for Eaves to be proud of.

In 08-09 and 10-11 Wisconsin had teams with 20 win seasons and +.550 winning percentages, and were one win instead of a loss away from getting in the tourney both times I believe. The 08-09 team ranked 11th nationally in goals per game, and 22nd in 10-11. One, or possibly both of those teams should have been in the tournament. So if you say the 07-08 team shouldn't have been in that's fine, but there's more to the story than cherry picking stats...or making up ones that aren't true.

 

[Almington]

In 08-09 and 10-11 Wisconsin had teams with 20 win seasons and +.550 winning percentages, and were one win instead of a loss away from getting in the tourney both times I believe. The 08-09 team ranked 11th nationally in goals per game, and 22nd in 10-11. One, or possibly both of those teams should have been in the tournament. So if you say the 07-08 team shouldn't have been in that's fine, but there's more to the story than cherry picking stats...or making up ones that aren't true.

If the non-goal that was had been counted out in Denver, one of those teams would have been in the tournament and the B1G Mistake may not have happened.

They also need to stop losing so many NC games, that is part of what kept those teams out.

UW has been spending WAY to much time within a single win of the bubble for my liking under Eaves.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

In 08-09 and 10-11 Wisconsin had teams with 20 win seasons and +.550 winning percentages, and were one win instead of a loss away from getting in the tourney both times I believe. The 08-09 team ranked 11th nationally in goals per game, and 22nd in 10-11. One, or possibly both of those teams should have been in the tournament. So if you say the 07-08 team shouldn't have been in that's fine, but there's more to the story than cherry picking stats...or making up ones that aren't true.

So your argument for things being just peachy is that we're consistently on the bubble? That's where we should be?

You sure do like excuses.


And as to who was painting an ultra-rosie picture of what to expect this year...

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

So your argument for things being just peachy is that we're consistently on the bubble? That's where we should be?

You sure do like excuses.

And as to who was painting an ultra-rosie picture of what to expect this year...

You get me correcting you falsifying UW's record on making the tournament as the overall picture being peachy? I've heard of twisting words, but wow.

As for your second part on painting a rosie picture on what to expect this year, you're absolutely correct. I said this team should have expectations as this was projected to be a veteran team and that they should be a good team. The team that I expected, the one with Nic Kerdiles, the one with a stable coaching staff, the one with Derek Lee (for most of the season), and the one with Mark Zengerle (mostly) healthy has gone 21-5-5 and won a Broadmoor trophy. They aren't without blemishes, but no one is perfect (except the Minnesota women, apparently)

But was I wrong? Or have I been watching a different team than you?

That doesn't mean I'm happy with the overall program, and I think my attendance article a few weeks back showed that. Doesn't mean that my expectations for the current team weren't accurate before the season.

UW has been spending WAY to much time within a single win of the bubble for my liking under Eaves.

Won't disagree with that.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

As for real hockey talk, Derek Lee won't play in the regional. Still holding out hope for the Frozen Four. Pittsburgh would be 6 1/2 weeks from the date of the injury.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

At least solovsfett was willing to say that he doesn't care about conference hardware and any season UW doesn't make the Frozen 4 is not a success. That's his opinion, he's wrong, but that's his issue.


Thus, if (when?) the bottom falls out after next season (or next season depending on any early departures) the seat under Eaves will get very hot, very quickly.

please re-read my posts. I said nothing close to what you've stated above with regard to Frozen Fours and success. so there is an issue here and it's you've made up what you THINK i've been saying.

what I DID say is this

- several people here called a Frozen Four or challenging for Frozen Fours for this season and next based solely on experience of the players (and not empirical evidence that it was possible based on the prior 2 years), I disagreed and got my head chopped off by you and others for it last year

- for THIS SEASON AND THIS SEASON ONLY, i've implied making the ncaa's is not success (that should be expected), they need to go beyond that. now to qualify as a success to me is for them to make some noise in the tourney. doing what is expected (despite how hard you had to work to do it) shouldn't be lauded, that would mean we've lowered expectations imo

with regard to MY opinion on what is a successful season for UW, here's what I said

make the NCAA's annually or 3 of 4 years

adding to that so there's no confusion: beyond that make a run to the FF in 1 or 2 of those 4 years

just because you disagree with me does not give you the right to make up what I said or re-write it

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

You get me correcting you falsifying UW's record on making the tournament as the overall picture being peachy? I've heard of twisting words, but wow.

As for your second part on painting a rosie picture on what to expect this year, you're absolutely correct. I said this team should have expectations as this was projected to be a veteran team and that they should be a good team. The team that I expected, the one with Nic Kerdiles, the one with a stable coaching staff, the one with Derek Lee (for most of the season), and the one with Mark Zengerle (mostly) healthy has gone 21-5-5 and won a Broadmoor trophy. They aren't without blemishes, but no one is perfect (except the Minnesota women, apparently)

But was I wrong? Or have I been watching a different team than you?

That doesn't mean I'm happy with the overall program, and I think my attendance article a few weeks back showed that. Doesn't mean that my expectations for the current team weren't accurate before the season.

Falsifying? I misspoke. I don't need to falsify anything to make a case that things haven't been good and that the trend is downward.

Missing the NCAAs 4 out of 7 years isn't much better than missing 5 and is still way below expectations. How about, "The Badgers have missed the tournament 4 out of the 7 seasons prior to this and by today's rules, would have missed 5." Happy?


And are you really gonna sit here now and claim that you were right all along about this team and this season? The team that had to go on an historic run where nothing went wrong for your prediction to be right? Do you know how many things had to align for this to happen that go far beyond the talent on the roster?

That's some stones right there. But hindsight being what it is, I guess you were spot-on.

A little bad puck-luck in the Final Five or one of those posts being a goal or Rumpel being called for throwing his stick (which it wasn't, but who the **** ever knows what Shepherd will do) and we could be done and this season would have been another miss.

You're like Baghdad Bob around here. Sure, lately you've finally started writing a few critical things, but for the years previous to this, you were always walking the party line and claiming that everything was a-okay.

Don't act like you've been objective all along.

 

[The Hallucination]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

My expectation for this season was a decent conference season and getting some NCAA experience, then praying not too many people left so perhaps there's a run next year. They turned around a dismal start for a conference playoff championship, and they're in the NCAAs, so I am pretty satisfied.

If we run a four-year cycle, I am not unhappy with that, it just means there has to be a lot of pressure that that 4th year is a hell of a year each time. If they can maintain the trend of playing in the championship game every four years (and win some, but the current 50% is acceptable), I am not going to *****, because I will trade you three down years for championship game appearance. We went what, 13 years (? something around that) without a Frozen Four in the late Sauer/rebuilding under new Eaves era, and that was too ****ed long; just making the NCAA isn't enough, and if we make it less often but make real noise every few years, I would rather have that. Of course making it 3/4 of the time AND making a real run every 4 would be even better, but if that's not realistic- and it doesn't seem to be- then I'll take the run every four rather than the appearance three of four.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

I think people are arguing past each other.

It is possible to have a successful SEASON while still not having a successful PROGRAM.

Anytime you win any of your three major trophies or make the F4, that season has been a success.

Any stretch where you don't make the NCAAs more than 40% of the time and any miss home ice just as often indicates that the program is not being successful.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

You win, Gurtholfin. You're right, I was absolutely incorrect about expecting good things out of the current team.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

Short term, meaning this season, it was a success by the skin of their teeth, having won the WCHA to get into the ncaa's. Had they lost to CC, the season would not have been a success, just another "almost" year. But they are in, I am a happy camper and with the way this team plays D I have no fear of any other teams in the tourney.

Long term, UW should be good enough year in and out to make the ncaa's as an at large team like UM, DU, UND, and BC are every year. This missing the ncaa by 1 game and missing 5 of 11 isn't good enough. Now Eaves' can't go back and change the past, he needs to turn the corner in 2014/2015 when next year's sr's are gone. The cycle of 2 crappy years, 1 on the verge year and 1 great year has to get fixed.

Next year they have to be a fixture in the top 10 all year/a lock for the ncaa. They will be as loaded and experienced as ever, with Besse filling in Lee's spot and Zulinick both shoring up the 2nd line, which then will slide Labate and Woods to the 3rd line, a good 3rd line who can score, then UW will actually have a 4th line with Dahl/Little/XXX who could just maybe score a bit, unlike this year's 4th line (due to injuries).

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey Vol XXV: There's Hope! Or whatever...

I think people are arguing past each other.

It is possible to have a successful SEASON while still not having a successful PROGRAM.

Anytime you win any of your three major trophies or make the F4, that season has been a success.

Any stretch where you don't make the NCAAs more than 40% of the time and any miss home ice just as often indicates that the program is not being successful.

this I agree with

EDIT - meaning the first part, we're talking past each other. the problem w/posting on lunch = perusing everything


now hopefully UW will win two and face the rats in the FF!