WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, What?

[markwojo]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

If a forward can't average 15 points a season over 4 years what are they doing playing college hockey. For example:
Fr: 3g-6a-9p
So: 4g-8a-12p
Jr: 6g-12a-18p
Sr: 7g-14a-21p
Total: 20g-40a-60p

I don't think any of those totals are unreasonable for most college players to put up in a season.

Yes and no. If said forward is playing 15 minutes a night and gets some PP time....absolutely yes and then some. Is said forward plays on a checking line getting 2 or 3 shifts a period...maybe not. It depends on what role they play on your team and not everyone's role will be to put up points.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

I can't agree more. Take a look at Andy Bohmbach's numbers, this is someone who was a late pick up that ended up playing some games in the AHL after UW. I think people are missing the point that Eaves has recruited too much of one type of player 3/4 years ago and it is showing on the ice at the moment with the grind style of play. It is unrealistic to have every forward recruited to put up over 60 points in his career. I also think players like Barnes/LeBate/Woods/Navin need to step up and fill these secondary scoring voids in the current team.

My point was that these guys had tons of potential, to end up like Pavs or Stepan, and none of them got better in their 4 yrs @ UW. If you are a higher end scorer in the level below and don't double your point average from your fr to sr years (if you stay that long), something is wrong.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

My point was that these guys had tons of potential, to end up like Pavs or Stepan, and none of them got better in their 4 yrs @ UW. If you are a higher end scorer in the level below and don't double your point average from your fr to sr years (if you stay that long), something is wrong.

Maybe they're just not good enough players. The level of the USHL compared to the WCHA is night and day. Kids can get away with stuff in the USHL that they obviously can't at this level. Tom Gorowsky couldn't skate a lick. It didn't matter in Minnesota high school hockey on the best team in the state when he put up a zillion points or even when he did well in the USHL. That flaw was exposed in the WCHA and he couldn't keep up. Finally, when he was a savvy senior he was able to produce.

Every case needs to be taken on an individual basis. I hate blanket statements on players.

 

[Almington]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Maybe they're just not good enough players. The level of the USHL compared to the WCHA is night and day. Kids can get away with stuff in the USHL that they obviously can't at this level. Tom Gorowsky couldn't skate a lick. It didn't matter in Minnesota high school hockey on the best team in the state when he put up a zillion points or even when he did well in the USHL. That flaw was exposed in the WCHA and he couldn't keep up. Finally, when he was a savvy senior he was able to produce.

Every case needs to be taken on an individual basis. I hate blanket statements on players.

In my experence, the players that produced in the USHL (or any of the Canadian Junior Leagues) and don't produce in the WCHA are generally held back by their skating ability (and in hindsight it becomes clear that they often had their numbers in juniors inflated who their linemates were and the system that the team were running particularly on the PP) because skating ability is what allows you to generate good chances 5-on-5.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

In my experence, the players that produced in the USHL (or any of the Canadian Junior Leagues) and don't produce in the WCHA are generally held back by their skating ability (and in hindsight it becomes clear that they often had their numbers in juniors inflated who their linemates were and the system that the team were running particularly on the PP) because skating ability is what allows you to generate good chances 5-on-5.

Ding. Ding. Ding. We've got a winner.

 

[Ohio Puck]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

How is Rumpel doing?

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

I was trying to think of all the early departures we've seen under Eaves (since the 2002 off-season), and I decided to try to make a definitive list. Let me know what I'm missing or have incorrect:

Early Departure (signed pro contract)
Jason Clark
Robbie Earl
Jake Gardiner
Cody Goloubef
Jamie McBain
Ryan McDonagh
Jordy Murray
Joe Pavelski
Joe Piskula
Justin Schultz
Jack Skille
Brendan Smith
Craig Smith
Derek Stepan
Ryan Suter
Kyle Turris

Transferred to Another Program
Ken Rowe
Tom Sawatske
Matt Thurber

Left for Major Junior
Matt Auffrey
Alex Leavitt
Nigel Williams

Left Hockey in General/Went Down to USHL/CIS/D-III
Tom Bardis
Zach Bearson
Joe Campbell
Patrick Daly
John Funk
Mark Heatley
Jake Heisler
Chris Hickey
Chris Julka
Tyler Lapic
Joey McElroy
Joe Simon

 

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

In my experence, the players that produced in the USHL (or any of the Canadian Junior Leagues) and don't produce in the WCHA are generally held back by their skating ability (and in hindsight it becomes clear that they often had their numbers in juniors inflated who their linemates were and the system that the team were running particularly on the PP) because skating ability is what allows you to generate good chances 5-on-5.

When a coach scouts a recruit, they can see how good their skating is. They can either pass on them because it sucks or know how to make them a better skater. There are all sorts of skating experts out there. Anyone who has played youth hockey or have had their kids play youth hockey has had the opportunity to have their kids work with an expert. Certainly there are exprts at the collegiate level and higher who can be brought in to help someone become a better skater. It's not easy to break old bad habits, but it is possible. I agree skating can be a factor in development, but I don't think it's a complete dead end.

 

[markwojo]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

When a coach scouts a recruit, they can see how good their skating is. They can either pass on them because it sucks or know how to make them a better skater. There are all sorts of skating experts out there. Anyone who has played youth hockey or have had their kids play youth hockey has had the opportunity to have their kids work with an expert. Certainly there are exprts at the collegiate level and higher who can be brought in to help someone become a better skater. It's not easy to break old bad habits, but it is possible. I agree skating can be a factor in development, but I don't think it's a complete dead end.

The problem is that coaches are trying to make decisions on how a 16/17 year old kid is going to develop. Some are done growing, while otheres are not. Yes you can always improve skating, but some kids will never improve enough to keep up at the next level. There are way to many variables to simply say taking some clinics will make a kid a better skater to the degree needed at a higher level (how hard of a worker is the kid? what are their genetics (can't teach size)? will girls/schoolwork/booze screw them up? are they even willing to realize they need help (these kids have been highly sucessful and told they are the crap all the way up from mite)? ). Make no mistake....skating is THE deadend for most players when they hit the end of the line in hockey...some just can't overcome it. I know a guy that does a little advising to NHL scouts and occasionally looks at kids...the first and second question is always can the kid skate with hockey sense being a distant third.

 

[Almington]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

When a coach scouts a recruit, they can see how good their skating is. They can either pass on them because it sucks or know how to make them a better skater. There are all sorts of skating experts out there. Anyone who has played youth hockey or have had their kids play youth hockey has had the opportunity to have their kids work with an expert. Certainly there are exprts at the collegiate level and higher who can be brought in to help someone become a better skater. It's not easy to break old bad habits, but it is possible. I agree skating can be a factor in development, but I don't think it's a complete dead end.

Everyone has limits to their physical ability. No amount of training time and developmental expertise is going to turn me (or just about anyone else) into an elite level athlete because of my physical limitations. We are not just talking about being above average or merely good at something, we are talking about being in a truly elite group, in the top few hundred or so for their age group of millions of young men. Some player are just not going to be able to move up and be successful at the next level.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

I should note that you can get away with not being a great skater, but you need to be exceptional in other areas including anticipation and hockey sense. Joe Pavelski is not a good skater, it's the reason he wasn't drafted until the 7th round and spent an extra year in the USHL. But Pavelski is one of the most intelligent players ever to play at the UW and is off the charts in a number of different areas obviously.

Michael Mersch couldn't skate a lick coming into UW and was left off the U.S. U18 team for the world championships. At UW he's really worked on it with the coaches and it's noticeable this season how much better he is on his feet. It's obviously shown up in the goal department as well. He's still got a ways to go to turn himself into an NHL type guy, but the improvement in this area makes me feel like it's possible down the road with his offensive skill set.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

A good discussion on the skating thing. I just have to think that yes there are physical limitations as to skating ability, but these guys are way above average athletes (probably an understatement), so you'd think they'd have the ability to improve their skating to a certain level. History does tell us some can, but some just can't. As markwojo said about the scout who said skating is 1 and 1a in evaluation, how can a guy like Eaves bring in a guy who just doesn't have that ncaa ability to skate? It sure seems like you can't bank on it improving enough to be able to utilize their other hockey skills. I guess I'd stay away from guys like that.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

A good discussion on the skating thing. I just have to think that yes there are physical limitations as to skating ability, but these guys are way above average athletes (probably an understatement), so you'd think they'd have the ability to improve their skating to a certain level. History does tell us some can, but some just can't. As markwojo said about the scout who said skating is 1 and 1a in evaluation, how can a guy like Eaves bring in a guy who just doesn't have that ncaa ability to skate? It sure seems like you can't bank on it improving enough to be able to utilize their other hockey skills. I guess I'd stay away from guys like that.

quick thoughts:
I think Eaves has brought in more than his fair share of guys that can't skate including "mr hitch in his get-up, Matt Ford", Gorowsky and many many others, Mitchell, Mersch etc. That indicates a willingness to overlook that component. however I think that's dangerous (regardless of how well he thinks he can coach and condition kids)

Skating is the most important aspect of the game obviously, I look at CC, DU, MN, BC, Michigan, they don't have many clunkers out there and even their big guys can skate, so I don't really know why Eaves chooses to go after guys -more often than any other coach it seems- that are terrible or average skaters. I honestly think it's because he can control these types of players moreso than the hotshots AND he thinks he can coach and condition them up. it's also (for now) my reasoning behind why he prefers a team or 3rd liners, control. much easier to convince the Little-Dahl-Little's of the world to buy into the D-zone responsibility than
it would be the Rau's of the world

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

quick thoughts:
I think Eaves has brought in more than his fair share of guys that can't skate including "mr hitch in his get-up, Matt Ford", Gorowsky and many many others, Mitchell, Mersch etc. That indicates a willingness to overlook that component. however I think that's dangerous (regardless of how well he thinks he can coach and condition kids)

Skating is the most important aspect of the game obviously, I look at CC, DU, MN, BC, Michigan, they don't have many clunkers out there and even their big guys can skate, so I don't really know why Eaves chooses to go after guys -more often than any other coach it seems- that are terrible or average skaters. I honestly think it's because he can control these types of players moreso than the hotshots AND he thinks he can coach and condition them up. it's also (for now) my reasoning behind why he prefers a team or 3rd liners, control. much easier to convince the Little-Dahl-Little's of the world to buy into the D-zone responsibility than
it would be the Rau's of the world

That's quite the conspiracy theory. Nowhere near accurate, but quite the conspiracy regardless.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

That's quite the conspiracy theory. Nowhere near accurate, but quite the conspiracy regardless.

eh, it's a thought as to why his recruiting tactics changed (which I believe he stated as much in 2007), why so many grinders et al. I know you're a glass 1/2 full guy w/Eaves, I used to be as well. changed my mind in 2008. regardless as to whether Eaves was forced by early departures into recruiting avg. players (which I'd argue is all his fault since Hakstol manages this just fine amongst others) I stand by the fact he's an ultimate control freak and while he can land a good forward now and then we'll never see a high flying team w/him at the helm. He just won't tolerate what comes with players like a Heater, Rau et al which is occasional defensive zone lapses or weak coverage with the upside being what we all know and have witnessed from said players

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

eh, it's a thought as to why his recruiting tactics changed (which I believe he stated as much in 2007), why so many grinders et al. I know you're a glass 1/2 full guy w/Eaves, I used to be as well. changed my mind in 2008. regardless as to whether Eaves was forced by early departures into recruiting avg. players (which I'd argue is all his fault since Hakstol manages this just fine amongst others) I stand by the fact he's an ultimate control freak and while he can land a good forward now and then we'll never see a high flying team w/him at the helm. He just won't tolerate what comes with players like a Heater, Rau et al which is occasional defensive zone lapses or weak coverage with the upside being what we all know and have witnessed from said players

That's just not true. Davies, Turris, Gagner, Zulinick, Besse hell even Brendan Smith/Gardiner/Schultz even though they are d-men were offense first, and very weak in their own end to start. To say that Eaves is recruiting bad players because he can control them is the craziest thing I've heard in a while. If he was such an ultimate control freak he wouldn't recruit players that are going to be draft picks alone, let alone first/second/third round guys which he's had a million of since he's been at UW. He'd recruit like Mankato with one draft pick on a good year.

 

[markwojo]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

It is starting to become apparent that the frustration over results in the program are starting to wharp some perceptions...both here in cyber messageboard world and in the Kohl Center by virtue of an overabundance of empty seats. Things need to change perceptions fairly quickly.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

That's just not true. Davies, Turris, Gagner, Zulinick, Besse hell even Brendan Smith/Gardiner/Schultz even though they are d-men were offense first, and very weak in their own end to start. To say that Eaves is recruiting bad players because he can control them is the craziest thing I've heard in a while. If he was such an ultimate control freak he wouldn't recruit players that are going to be draft picks alone, let alone first/second/third round guys which he's had a million of since he's been at UW. He'd recruit like Mankato with one draft pick on a good year.

Mankato currently has two draft picks on their roster. A second and a third rounder. So, must be a really good year then.

Who cares about how many draft picks you have. The same Mankato team and their two draft picks just swept you and your eight draft picks at home.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I think you're missing the big picture. Yes, Eaves probably wouldn't be recruiting guys that are likely to draft high if he wanted to "control" his players. But should he really be recruiting so many guys that are likely to get drafted high in the first place?

This isn't the 70's, 80's, or even 90's. Post 2005 those guys aren't hanging around as long and the teams with less high draft picks and older rosters seem to be doing better.

Being an "NHL Pipeline" is a nice consolation prize, but I'd rather produce less NHL talent and win more NCAA games.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Being an "NHL Pipeline" is a nice consolation prize, but I'd rather produce less NHL talent and win more NCAA games.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

The perception I get of Eaves is he's like that teacher you hated while you were in high school, (who pushed you constantly and was hard on you), but once you were in college or working, when you look back you see that that teacher was the best you had.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Mankato currently has two draft picks on their roster. A second and a third rounder. So, must be a really good year then.

Who cares about how many draft picks you have. The same Mankato team and their two draft picks just swept you and your eight draft picks at home.

I see the point you're trying to make, but I think you're missing the big picture. Yes, Eaves probably wouldn't be recruiting guys that are likely to draft high if he wanted to "control" his players. But should he really be recruiting so many guys that are likely to get drafted high in the first place?

This isn't the 70's, 80's, or even 90's. Post 2005 those guys aren't hanging around as long and the teams with less high draft picks and older rosters seem to be doing better.

Being an "NHL Pipeline" is a nice consolation prize, but I'd rather produce less NHL talent and win more NCAA games.

That's another topic entirely from what I was talking about, but I don't disagree with your point that Eaves goal first and foremost is to put together a lineup that produces wins at this level. But as John Calipari said, one of the best days in Kentucky basketball was when he had 5 guys go in the first round. Kids want to play for coaches that put players in the NHL, and Eaves track record in that department is second to none. So, I don't think it should be overlooked, but the goal is, and always will be to bring national championships to the University of Wisconsin first. I don't think Eaves has lost sight of that, yet. That said, I do think he's focused on bringing in more four year players.