WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, What?

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

There are many more than 4, I think we forget that some players that leave as stars didn't come in as big time recruits.

Exactly, the non-development thing is a joke which is why I brought up Mersch. There's a reason why Wisconsin had the 2nd most players in the NHL last season. Sure, they recruit well, but they develop guys as well. When NHL teams are specifically noting the way you develop players when they draft your kids, you know you're doing it right on the developmental side. Sure, there are going to be kids who fizzle out, but that happens in every program (just look at first round picks Pat White and David Fischer).

 

[Almington]

Exactly, the non-development thing is a joke which is why I brought up Mersch. There's a reason why Wisconsin had the 2nd most players in the NHL last season. Sure, they recruit well, but they develop guys as well. When NHL teams are specifically noting the way you develop players when they draft your kids, you know you're doing it right on the developmental side. Sure, there are going to be kids who fizzle out, but that happens in every program (just look at first round picks Pat White and David Fischer).

Eaves may develop top end guys for the pros, but his track record with getting lower ceiling guys to consistantly contribute on the scoreboard WHILE at UW is not particularly good. I think that others underestimate the talent that is on this team, but to me it is clear that UW has an over abundance of grinders at the expense of secondary scorers: UW has no 3rd line players who will be able to step into the top 2 lines when those players depart.

Eaves is great at landing 2 or 3 top level forwards a year which with departures and misses is enough to have 2 good scoring lines, but gives you ZERO depth beyond that when you end up bringing in a class of 4 players who all end up as grinders because you HAVE to replace bodies due to graduation and early departures.

Having a forwards roster of 2 or 3 elite and 4 top 3 line players with 8 grinders is a recipe for a team that is going to struggle offensively as other teams can focus on shutting down the top lines and daring the other lines to beat them.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Eaves may develop top end guys for the pros, but his track record with getting lower ceiling guys to consistantly contribute on the scoreboard WHILE at UW is not particularly good. I think that others underestimate the talent that is on this team, but to me it is clear that UW has an over abundance of grinders at the expense of secondary scorers: UW has no 3rd line players who will be able to step into the top 2 lines when those players depart.

Eaves is great at landing 2 or 3 top level forwards a year which with departures and misses is enough to have 2 good scoring lines, but gives you ZERO depth beyond that when you end up bringing in a class of 4 players who all end up as grinders because you HAVE to replace bodies due to graduation and early departures.

Having a forwards roster of 2 or 3 elite and 4 top 3 line players with 8 grinders is a recipe for a team that is going to struggle offensively as other teams can focus on shutting down the top lines and daring the other lines to beat them.

You're making different points here.

 

[bucky15]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Either way, if you told me they would be unbeaten in their next 6 games after the Kato series....I would have laughed. They have a good chance to make that into 7 and 8 games going into Mankato to see how much they really have improved.

 

[Almington]

You're making different points here.

Yes; separate paragraphs, separate points.

Part of the reason many of the players don't appear to have developed is that they were low ceiling players to begin with. Even then, Eaves hasn't found one diamond in the rough in all of the projected grinders that he has brought in.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Yes; separate paragraphs, separate points.

Part of the reason many of the players don't appear to have developed is that they were low ceiling players to begin with. Even then, Eaves hasn't found one diamond in the rough in all of the projected grinders that he has brought in.

Grinders are brought in to well, grind. They aren't there to score, that's not their role. Scoring is simply a bonus. I'm not disagreeing that this current team has too many mediocre forwards, but my simple point was that I think it's asinine to believe that Eaves isn't a solid developer of talent. There's plenty of examples of guys like Drewiske, and Bombach, and Mitchell, and Piskula who turned themselves into good players after being afterthoughts when they were brought in. There's a million other examples of guys who consistently got better during their time at UW.

Simply not buying that Eaves is not a good developer of talent.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

2nd 1/2 schedule is pretty brutal considering their output thusfar. I'm thinking this team winds up w/about 12-14 wins if things go right for them.

@UNO, vs. MN, Miami, Nodak, St. Cloud - 4 wins???
alasaka x 2, Mankato, bemidji, Penn State - 5 wins??

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

2nd 1/2 schedule is pretty brutal considering their output thusfar. I'm thinking this team winds up w/about 12-14 wins if things go right for them.

@UNO, vs. MN, Miami, Nodak, St. Cloud - 4 wins???
alasaka x 2, Mankato, bemidji, Penn State - 5 wins??

Maybe I'm nuts but I'm looking at the second half of the season as the glass being half full. Should be the first time all season they've had all hands on deck as I anticipate Zulinick back for Anchorage. Goaltending is outstanding right now and while the defense isn't providing much in the way of offense, their zone coverage has been good.

Team really came together in the second half last year, and while Schultz obviously had a lot to do with it, his numbers were significantly better in the first half of the season. I don't think they will be a tournament team, but I do expect better results in the second half.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Maybe I'm nuts but I'm looking at the second half of the season as the glass being half full. Should be the first time all season they've had all hands on deck as I anticipate Zulinick back for Anchorage. Goaltending is outstanding right now and while the defense isn't providing much in the way of offense, their zone coverage has been good.

Team really came together in the second half last year, and while Schultz obviously had a lot to do with it, his numbers were significantly better in the first half of the season. I don't think they will be a tournament team, but I do expect better results in the second half.

you may be right and I really hope you are. Cerniglia made the point last night that the lines are starting to come together now, especially the Mersch-Lee-Labate line and the Little-Dahl-Little line. and that the 1st line needs more time

I think we'll have the full picture after the Miami series as to how the team may progress in the 2nd half

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Maybe I'm nuts but I'm looking at the second half of the season as the glass being half full.

Half full of what, exactly?

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Half full of what, exactly?

Great point.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

That is crazy if you really only think it is 3 forwards who developed under Eaves. Take a look at Blake Geof's stats over his time at UW. Recruits are like draft picks an educated gamble, some kids aren't going to pan out regardless of the coach or situation.

The numbers will tell the tale, but they are not forthcoming anytime soon, from me anyway. The key will be defining development. What % increase in points constitutes development?

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

The numbers will tell the tale, but they are not forthcoming anytime soon, from me anyway. The key will be defining development. What % increase in points constitutes development?

Who even says points necessarily constitutes development? So much more to the game.

 

[bucky15]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Who even says points necessarily constitutes development? So much more to the game.

I think the earlier argument was based off forwards offensive development under Eaves. Blake had 6 points in 36 GP his first year and ended with a 50 point hobey senior year. What the NHL stouts like is the way Eaves holds his forwards accountable in the defensive end, which would go with the latest point.

 

[Almington]

Who even says points necessarily constitutes development? So much more to the game.

At the end of the day, you don't win games if you don't score goals. When you have 60% of the forwards under Eaves with career lines of 25 goals and 35 assists in 140 games your team is going to struggle to win games. When 2 of every 3 forwards in your lineup are grinders you are going to struggle to win games because your team lacks offensive depth.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

At the end of the day, you don't win games if you don't score goals. When you have 60% of the forwards under Eaves with career lines of 25 goals and 35 assists in 140 games your team is going to struggle to win games. When 2 of every 3 forwards in your lineup are grinders you are going to struggle to win games because your team lacks offensive depth.

This. 100% This.

I won't argue Eaves hasn't developed some guys, that's been pretty apparent. however the above quote points to mis-guided recruiting imo and it's spot on.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

. however the above quote points to mis-guided recruiting imo and it's spot on.

Were Gorowsky 2, 12, 4, 30 and Turnbull 11, 6, 2, 20 guys Eaves should not have gone after? They both put up 50 pts in the ushl. Gorowsky was Mr. Hockey in Rodentsota. Once they both got onto the ice their Sr. years, they did produce, but Eaves wasted them away on the bench/mis-used them their first 3 years. Look at Davies, put up 71 pts in the ushl, scored 24, 24, 23 pts his first 3 years, then of course had the 52 pt sr year. His development was flat for 3 years, then benefited from being on a team loaded with NHL players. Joudrey had 71 in the sjhl, then scored 22 24 18 29; that's not much of an improvement at all over 4 years. Matt Ford 68 pts in the ushl, then 10, 7, 13, 9 for Eaves, yikes. Ross Carlson had 50 in the USHL, then 17, 29, 23, 23. Dowell played for the usdp, didn't score a lot there (21 pts over 2 years, but neither did Earl), 19, 26, 20, 25, for a flat development, but obviously he had other great qualities. There's a lot of no improvements there. Now to be fair, guys like Earl, Geoffrion, Stepan, and possibly Murray, Street and Pavs to a minor extents did develop, though all these guys came in highly touted and answered the bell. When you have 2/3 of your team being grinders to start, when you miss on 1/2 of the other 1/3 you think will be scorers, you end up with a team on 5/6ths grinders and 1/6 scorers. And when you have early departure possibilities, you have to bring in even more high end guys because you're going to lose some. There's nothing wrong with a 3rd line that can score one year who will end up being 2nd/1st line guys the next year due to defections.

 

[markwojo]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Were Gorowsky 2, 12, 4, 30 and Turnbull 11, 6, 2, 20 guys Eaves should not have gone after? They both put up 50 pts in the ushl. Gorowsky was Mr. Hockey in Rodentsota. Once they both got onto the ice their Sr. years, they did produce, but Eaves wasted them away on the bench/mis-used them their first 3 years. Look at Davies, put up 71 pts in the ushl, scored 24, 24, 23 pts his first 3 years, then of course had the 52 pt sr year. His development was flat for 3 years, then benefited from being on a team loaded with NHL players. Joudrey had 71 in the sjhl, then scored 22 24 18 29; that's not much of an improvement at all over 4 years. Matt Ford 68 pts in the ushl, then 10, 7, 13, 9 for Eaves, yikes. Ross Carlson had 50 in the USHL, then 17, 29, 23, 23. Dowell played for the usdp, didn't score a lot there (21 pts over 2 years, but neither did Earl), 19, 26, 20, 25, for a flat development, but obviously he had other great qualities. There's a lot of no improvements there. Now to be fair, guys like Earl, Geoffrion, Stepan, and possibly Murray, Street and Pavs to a minor extents did develop, though all these guys came in highly touted and answered the bell. When you have 2/3 of your team being grinders to start, when you miss on 1/2 of the other 1/3 you think will be scorers, you end up with a team on 5/6ths grinders and 1/6 scorers. And when you have early departure possibilities, you have to bring in even more high end guys because you're going to lose some. There's nothing wrong with a 3rd line that can score one year who will end up being 2nd/1st line guys the next year due to defections.

Wait, what? Because every guy with accolades coming in didn't set the world on fire it's all Eaves fault? Can you tell me which coach never has a guy disappoint? Guys that put up decent numbers in the USHL don't see their numbers drop at the next level? How many points did Burish put up in the USHL verses in college verses what did he did in the NHL once he got there? Pretty sure most players produce less as they progess up the food chain to higher levels of hockey.

 

[bucky15]

Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. 22 - Let's not have another cheesy thread title... Wait, W

Wait, what? Because every guy with accolades coming in didn't set the world on fire it's all Eaves fault? Can you tell me which coach never has a guy disappoint? Guys that put up decent numbers in the USHL don't see their numbers drop at the next level? How many points did Burish put up in the USHL verses in college verses what did he did in the NHL once he got there? Pretty sure most players produce less as they progess up the food chain to higher levels of hockey.

I can't agree more. Take a look at Andy Bohmbach's numbers, this is someone who was a late pick up that ended up playing some games in the AHL after UW. I think people are missing the point that Eaves has recruited too much of one type of player 3/4 years ago and it is showing on the ice at the moment with the grind style of play. It is unrealistic to have every forward recruited to put up over 60 points in his career. I also think players like Barnes/LeBate/Woods/Navin need to step up and fill these secondary scoring voids in the current team.

 

[Almington]

I can't agree more. Take a look at Andy Bohmbach's numbers, this is someone who was a late pick up that ended up playing some games in the AHL after UW. I think people are missing the point that Eaves has recruited too much of one type of player 3/4 years ago and it is showing on the ice at the moment with the grind style of play. It is unrealistic to have every forward recruited to put up over 60 points in his career. I also think players like Barnes/LeBate/Woods/Navin need to step up and fill these secondary scoring voids in the current team.

If a forward can't average 15 points a season over 4 years what are they doing playing college hockey. For example:
Fr: 3g-6a-9p
So: 4g-8a-12p
Jr: 6g-12a-18p
Sr: 7g-14a-21p
Total: 20g-40a-60p

I don't think any of those totals are unreasonable for most college players to put up in a season.