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Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Second lieutenants are not even close to a protected class. Somebody has to lead the troops in Afghanistan.

I was under the impression that the Platoon Sergeant was the person with the most experience who help train the Secont lieutenants. I agree that the Second lieutenants have a very dangerious job into today's military.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

When I was a second platoon leader in the 9th Cav. the life expectancy of a second Lt in combat in my position was just 20 seconds. Believe me I lost several fellow officer friends in Nam.


I was under the impression that the Platoon Sergeant was the person with the most experience who help train the Secont lieutenants. I agree that the Second lieutenants have a very dangerious job into today's military.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I do hope they get some sort of deal done. It's not fair they can't play for anything. Why bother if you can't go for a title?
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

When I was a second platoon leader in the 9th Cav. the life expectancy of a second Lt in combat in my position was just 20 seconds. Believe me I lost several fellow officer friends in Nam.

There is NO one I respect more, than someone who is drafted into the military and gives their best at their assignment. I also respect ANYONE who chooses to follow their dream and does their best. I will admit, there are many military MOS's that I place right up their with rock climbing, high altitude mountain climbing and other "extreme" choices, personally they are not for me, but nevertheless, as I said, I respect the choices others make.
 
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Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I actually respect those that VOLUNTEER for the military and give their best.:) The Draft went away in the 1970's.:p

I'm appreciative of those who VOLUNTEER to do any job I don't want to, particularily those I benefit from and am especially glad that there are enough volunteers into the military so that that they don't have to call upon the Selective Service - which all US males over 18 are STILL required to sign up with. And while I respect those volunteers, it is, as I've stated, with NO greater respect than I give anyone else who pursues their dreams and ambitions. I do have my utmost respect and appreciation for those men who were forcibly called to duty when they were tapping the Selective Service list. FYI, for more on VOLUNTEERS - see here.
 
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Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I'm appreciative of those who VOLUNTEER to do any job I don't want to, particularily those I benefit from and am especially glad that there are enough volunteers into the military so that that they don't have to call upon the Selective Service - which all US males over 18 are STILL required to sign up with. And while I respect those volunteers, it is, as I've stated, with NO greater respect than I give anyone else who pursues their dreams and ambitions. I do have my utmost respect and appreciation for those men who were forcibly called to duty when they were tapping the Selective Service list. FYI, for more on VOLUNTEERS - see here.


Thank you as always for this highly relevant insight :rolleyes:
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

As much as I respect those who have served and are currently serving and of course those who choose the service academies because of hockey including Army and Airforce but now kids are going into the Navy and Coast Guard Academy because of their club teams. I further respect those kids that choose to go to one of the private military institutions like Norwich although only a very small percentage that play hockey at Norwich actually are in the Corps of Cadets but those other kids that go to schools like VMI, or the Citadel and end up graduating and go to war for this country and paid the tuition to do so, very impressive and more impressive is that those two schools have Club hockey programs now.

But let's not forget that this is a thread about Div. II hockey and that if Military and Service academies is a topic of discussion it should have it's own thread.


Thank you as always for this highly relevant insight :rolleyes:
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I did not mean to digress from the topic by infering that Army and Air force offer athletic scholarships but i will tell you that when my brother was being recruited by Army for hockey, the recruiter made it a point to remind him that there would be no substantial out of pocket expense to him. Now back to my initial questionany DI schools beside the Ivies,Union and RIT,not offer athletic scholarships.
for the record my brother is a USMC Col. and former head coach at Navy.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I did not mean to digress from the topic by infering that Army and Air force offer athletic scholarships but i will tell you that when my brother was being recruited by Army for hockey, the recruiter made it a point to remind him that there would be no substantial out of pocket expense to him. Now back to my initial questionany DI schools beside the Ivies,Union and RIT,not offer athletic scholarships.
for the record my brother is a USMC Col. and former head coach at Navy.
For the record, Union and RIT are D-III schools playing up and are prohibited by By-Law from offering athletic scholarships.

On the D-I side, the Ivies, Holy Cross, and UConn (men only) off the top of my (bald) head do not offer schollys for ice hockey.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I and my classmates here at Norwich all volunteered. There was a draft at the time but no need to draft us.:)

There is NO one I respect more, than someone who is drafted into the military and gives their best at their assignment. I also respect ANYONE who chooses to follow their dream and does their best. I will admit, there are many military MOS's that I place right up their with rock climbing, high altitude mountain climbing and other "extreme" choices, personally they are not for me, but nevertheless, as I said, I respect the choices others make.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

For the record, Union and RIT are D-III schools playing up and are prohibited by By-Law from offering athletic scholarships.

On the D-I side, the Ivies, Holy Cross, and UConn (men only) off the top of my (bald) head do not offer schollys for ice hockey.

Holy Cross has actually started giving scholarships (not that many though)
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Well this sort of clears up limbo...

Board sponsors legislation for new DI membership standards
By Michelle Brutlag Hosick
NCAA.org

Division I schools will have the opportunity to voice their opinion on new criteria for membership in the NCAA’s most high-profile division.

The Division I Board of Directors introduced legislation Thursday to codify a series of new membership standards proposed by the Division I Leadership Council.

The first votes on the recommendations, including a four-year transition process from Division II and an application fee of approximately $1.3 million, will be cast at the 2011 NCAA Convention in January.

In August 2007, the Board placed a four-year moratorium on consideration of new members that expires in August 2011 when the legislation would take effect, if it is adopted. The moratorium was prompted by the presidents’ view that the division should assess the impact of membership migration and develop updated expectations and requirements for membership.

The Leadership Council constructed the new standards were constructed over a period of 18 months. The recommendations include:

* A requirement that all new Division I members first spend at least five years as active members in Division II.

* New Division I members must have a bona fide offer of membership from a Division I multisport voting conference. Only one D-I multi-sport conference sponsors ice hockey -- the ECAC.

* A four-year reclassification process would be created for new members.

* An application fee would be established commensurate with the estimated annual average value of direct benefits of Division I membership through distributions and championships (approximately $1.3 million currently).

* No school subject to a historically based penalty under the Academic Performance Program would be elected to active membership.

* Preliminary certification would be required in the first year of reclassification, and a full compliance review would be required before election to active membership.

* New members would be eligible for revenue distributions related to sport sponsorship and grants-in-aid after three years as an active member. Institutions would qualify immediately for Student-Athlete Opportunity, Special Assistance and Academic Enhancement Funds, as well as basketball grant funds as determined by its conference.

* The practice of allowing schools to sponsor a single sport in a different division would be eliminated, except in sports where no championship is conducted in its division. Divisions II and III schools currently taking advantage of this opportunity would not affected unless they fail to conduct the sport in Division I for any ensuing year. Screws the D-III's, but not the D-II's

* The Administration Cabinet would be responsible for review of the reclassification process and appropriate benchmarks.

* The Board would vote to elect institutions to active membership (not the Leadership Council).

Leadership Council members believe – and Board members agree – that the recommendations consider a variety of factors, including allowing student-athletes access to championships (by requiring five years of Division II membership before reclassifying) and protecting the Division I “brand” (by requiring compliance with some Division I standards earlier in the reclassification process and tying the application fee to benefits derived from membership).

The proposal will be considered as part of the regular legislative cycle, with an effective date of August 1, 2011. Schools already in the reclassification process will not be affected by the change.

My take -- No D-III schools can ever play up, unless (a) the Big 10/12 sponsors ice hockey, or (b) the ECACHL expands. RIT will be the last D-III ever to make the jump.

D-II's can still play up.

Still no solution for the Screwed Six.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Only one D-I multi-sport conference sponsors ice hockey -- the ECAC.

I believe the ECACHL removed themselves from the ECAC umbrella a few years ago, despite the name. I don't believe they're affiliated anymore.

r


EDIT: i guess they're an "affiliate league" for administrative purposes...not sure what that means, or if that qualifies them as a multi-sport conference.
 
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Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Wouldn't reducing D-II scholly's to 0 enable the D-III's to compete on a level playing field???

BTW, D-II men can offer 13.5 schollys, while the D-II women can offer 18.0. Hmmmmmm......

To my knowledge D 2 does not give any scholarship money for athletics, like any NCAA D 2 or D 3 they give need based scholarships and outright academic scholarships. Who would want to interfere with the widespread policy of allowing students with merit but little money to have a crack at a college education. Further I don't think this leveling effect that some here are advocating takes into account the intangibles that speak to what a quality educational institution is all about.

Many D 2 schools are expensive private institutions and probably would not have the balance of students that any educational enterprise wants to achieve, including actual bodies to play and maintain their sports programs and a balanced student body.

I would lament the loss of autonomy and decision making that some here propose. Schools have traditions and they have varied yet focused mandates and, yes. some make better decisions than others, but what we are missing is that every institution should have as much autonomy in decision making as possible to create, maintain and extend their vision into the future unencumbered by the one size fits all mentality perpetuated here.

I don't know of any schools that are handing out athletic scholarships in the D 2 or D 3 colleges. So how is there any material advantage. Schools in my experience have followed the rules and don't even need the rules because their mandate has been to create a school climate defined by the diversity of student participants it houses. In other words the focus has been appropriately academic in nature and they get the best quality student athletes who are academically sound as possible. They know that their reputation rests at the end of the day on their academic reputation.

Case closed. You are trying to measure and micro manage issues that have much more significance than score sheets and what looks to be reverse logic. The schools with this mythical and unrealized advantage are those that have the worst records, and always will. Why? Because they know which side their bread is buttered on: the academic side.

My final point is that logic and ethical practices go together, you are only as good as your reputation. No school can afford to or is purposely trying to obfuscate the rules or the intent of the rules, they are quite simply trying to do the best they can to exercise their mandate in a way that they believe furthers the public good and meets the very unique and specific needs of their respective school communities.

I doubt that players are going to flock to D 2 schools for a perceived funding advantage that probably does not exist. I am unaware of any athletic scholarships in D 2 or D3 although someone mentioned RIT? Who says that the D 2 schools have more, less or even as much money or discretion, in policy and practice, with money in their athletic departments. I think the whole thing is smoke and mirrors and a red herring. The real issue is allowing a long overdue change allowing D 2 to compete in a championship that they have every right to compete in as they play in the same loop. All other distinctions are self-serving and tend to confuse the central issue of fairness, holding the proper decision in abeyance while stone walling continues.

The fallacy of a D 2 advantage is ludicrous as even with the proposed change it is unlikely that any D 2 team would qualify for the championship. The truth is in the pudding and I doubt that players are going to flock to D 2 schools just because they can realize the right to qualify to play in a championship which is the crowning glory of all of their considerable athletic efforts throughout the year. To say otherwise is to reveal your partisan nature and to engage in rhetoric and double-speak. The time for stone walling is over, if you believe in fairness, be fair. Don't set out to prove a point, let's take the opportunity at hand to right a wrong.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I believe joecct's statement "Wouldn't reducing D-II scholly's to 0 enable the D-III's to compete on a level playing field???" did mean to imply any DII's were giving athletic scholarships to hockey players, but rather was meant as "If the DII schools passed a resolution prohibiting athletic scholarships for Men's Ice Hockey, then the DIII schools shouldn't have any issues counting games against them and allowing them into the DIII Championships".
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

To my knowledge D 2 does not give any scholarship money for athletics, like any NCAA D 2 or D 3 they give need based scholarships and outright academic scholarships. Who would want to interfere with the widespread policy of allowing students with merit but little money to have a crack at a college education. Further I don't think this leveling effect that some here are advocating takes into account the intangibles that speak to what a quality educational institution is all about.

Many D 2 schools are expensive private institutions and probably would not have the balance of students that any educational enterprise wants to achieve, including actual bodies to play and maintain their sports programs and a balanced student body.

I would lament the loss of autonomy and decision making that some here propose. Schools have traditions and they have varied yet focused mandates and, yes. some make better decisions than others, but what we are missing is that every institution should have as much autonomy in decision making as possible to create, maintain and extend their vision into the future unencumbered by the one size fits all mentality perpetuated here.

I don't know of any schools that are handing out athletic scholarships in the D 2 or D 3 colleges. So how is there any material advantage. Schools in my experience have followed the rules and don't even need the rules because their mandate has been to create a school climate defined by the diversity of student participants it houses. In other words the focus has been appropriately academic in nature and they get the best quality student athletes who are academically sound as possible. They know that their reputation rests at the end of the day on their academic reputation.

Case closed. You are trying to measure and micro manage issues that have much more significance than score sheets and what looks to be reverse logic. The schools with this mythical and unrealized advantage are those that have the worst records, and always will. Why? Because they know which side their bread is buttered on: the academic side.

My final point is that logic and ethical practices go together, you are only as good as your reputation. No school can afford to or is purposely trying to obfuscate the rules or the intent of the rules, they are quite simply trying to do the best they can to exercise their mandate in a way that they believe furthers the public good and meets the very unique and specific needs of their respective school communities.

I doubt that players are going to flock to D 2 schools for a perceived funding advantage that probably does not exist. I am unaware of any athletic scholarships in D 2 or D3 although someone mentioned RIT? Who says that the D 2 schools have more, less or even as much money or discretion, in policy and practice, with money in their athletic departments. I think the whole thing is smoke and mirrors and a red herring. The real issue is allowing a long overdue change allowing D 2 to compete in a championship that they have every right to compete in as they play in the same loop. All other distinctions are self-serving and tend to confuse the central issue of fairness, holding the proper decision in abeyance while stone walling continues.

The fallacy of a D 2 advantage is ludicrous as even with the proposed change it is unlikely that any D 2 team would qualify for the championship. The truth is in the pudding and I doubt that players are going to flock to D 2 schools just because they can realize the right to qualify to play in a championship which is the crowning glory of all of their considerable athletic efforts throughout the year. To say otherwise is to reveal your partisan nature and to engage in rhetoric and double-speak. The time for stone walling is over, if you believe in fairness, be fair. Don't set out to prove a point, let's take the opportunity at hand to right a wrong.

Of course DII's give athletic scholarships. There are players at the Northeast-10 that are getting full Basketball, soccer, scholarships and many that get Athletic Aid. This aid is subject to making the team, staying eligible, and clearing NCAA rules. All these schools can give ATHLETIC AID.

The NE 10 has always had need based scholarships. But just recently a change is taking place that scholarships will now have no-need limitations? So if the school has the $ they can go above need.

I don't think they are doing it for hockey, but you can get the soccer kid or lacrosse kid getting athletic $ who just happenms to play hockey as well. I think the ECAC East had something in place for St. A's and St. Mike's regarding this??
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

Of course DII's give athletic scholarships. There are players at the Northeast-10 that are getting full Basketball, soccer, scholarships and many that get Athletic Aid. This aid is subject to making the team, staying eligible, and clearing NCAA rules. All these schools can give ATHLETIC AID.

The NE 10 has always had need based scholarships. But just recently a change is taking place that scholarships will now have no-need limitations? So if the school has the $ they can go above need.

I don't think they are doing it for hockey, but you can get the soccer kid or lacrosse kid getting athletic $ who just happenms to play hockey as well. I think the ECAC East had something in place for St. A's and St. Mike's regarding this??

I don't believe anyone thinks the DII schools don't give athletic scholarships, nor do I believe anyone thinks they shouldn't - except for Men's Ice Hockey, and then, only to level the playing field to allow their games to count and also allow them the potential to participate in the championship.
 
Re: Will the DII's ever get out of Limbo?

I don't believe anyone thinks the DII schools don't give athletic scholarships, nor do I believe anyone thinks they shouldn't - except for Men's Ice Hockey, and then, only to level the playing field to allow their games to count and also allow them the potential to participate in the championship.

I will check it out, but it may be semantics as academic ability needs to be high to get into D 2 schools. Maybe it is a way of freeing up some academic scholarship money for non-sports yet highly qualified candidates. Point being that at 40,000 +++ D 2 schools would not have many attending let alone playing sports if they weren't given some significant consideration.

Definitely going to check into the numbers, as I was lead to believe differently?!
Going to get some more consideration or relocate.
 
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