WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Two reasons- 1) Hell has no fury as a hockey team scorned, and 2) CSS has never indicated, that I'm aware of, that travel was a deal maker or breaker for conference affiliation.

P.S.- Dennis are you aware that Finlandia is not just a stones throw away from the WIACs ?

OK, but do you really think CSS will be making an emotional decision here? Trading trips to UW-Superior (10+ minutes) for trips to Adrian (10+ hours) just makes no sense to me. I have to believe that reasonable people will make reasonable decisions.

As for Finlandia, their problem is that they're just not close to anyone - except Michigan Tech. Even worse, weather conditions can turn long trips into long, slow trips. Whether they are nearer overall to WIAC schools or MCHA schools looks like a pretty close call (except for Adrian), and probably depends upon which schools end up in each.

Edit: I think I understand your P.S. now. You were suggesting that in another post I should have included Finlandia as a school that is geographically undesirable to WIAC. You are correct. Thanks.

 

[Sir Nubs]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

My question is what the WIAC coaches must be thinking about all of this. Have they even figured out the worst case scenario here - no AQ, and no Pool B if the ECAC-W gets a 7th team as is rumored? If I'm Stauber, Freeman and the boys I'm probably getting punchy wondering if they didn't just put themselves in a highly untenable position when no privates join them.

 

[joeyc3402]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The more I look at it, the dumber this whole decision looks.

 

[norm1909]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The more I look at it, the dumber this whole decision looks.

I seriously can’t see significant enough financial savings from the WIAC schools solely though disassociation from the NCHA. While there may be some minor cost savings by eliminating certain redundant administrative positions and others related synergistic benefits – under the NCHA banner, the hockey administrative expenses were split 7 ways, under the new situation, the WIAC could only be assured of splitting them 5 ways. I simply can’t see enough to warrant abandoning association with such a successful conference – both currently and historically. The only thing that makes sense to me is a decision to protect and promote their own brand. Hockey is a sport of significant appeal to the general recruiting base of the WIAC schools – flying solely under their own banner would aid in this. Also having full control the marketing/promotion of the sport also provides significant benefits. It is these indirect-financial factors that IMO, encouraged the “upper management” to seek/promote/support the change.

 

[Raidineer]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Those are my opinions you are commenting on, not the WIAC's. Throughout this thread, I've explained my opinions thoroughly enough that I shouldn't need to explain them here.

You seem to think that if WIAC invites any MCHA teams, that MSOE should be entitled to join also, or instead of those schools. Doesn't work that way in the real world. To WIAC, the only two MCHA schools more geographically undesirable than MSOE are Adrian and Lake Forest.

If you want to continue this discussion, please present a reasonable argument.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, though I do appreciate that you removed the part of your post that said I was whining.

Listen, I'm not an expert with this stuff so I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. As a Division I fan also I'm well aware that the actions of a few schools can lead to a series of effects people might not have been expecting. I understand that you've explained your opinions, and I appreciate it, but I'm still confused over a couple things that you have failed to answer in a sufficient manner. Previously, you stated that if St. Norbert and St. Scholastica did not join the WIAC, the WIAC would just invite Marian and Finlandia and they would "most certainly accept." As a MSOE fan, I'm still confused why those would be preferential to MSOE, and why you think they would "most certainly accept."

You've mentioned the travel distances, but that doesn't pass muster since MSOE is closer to four of the WIAC schools than Finlandia. If it's the lack of a women's program, fine, but you haven't said that anywhere. Since it can't be geography and nothing has been said about the women, I'm just wondering what the reasoning would be. Heck, even if it's to just grab two more teams out of desperation to keep the tournament bid that makes sense too but no one has made that point either. Finally, I'm no expert but I still am a bit confused by the "most certainly accept" part. It could very well be true but what exists that would give anyone such an indication?

None of this probably matters as SNC and CSS will probably just join the WIAC anyway, but that doesn't change the fact you haven't provide reasonable explanations to some pretty far reaching assumptions you effortlessly cast about earlier in the discussion. No need to get wound up about it. I think I, like everyone else here, am just trying to see where all this might go. That's all.

For the record, I'm not sure why you made yet another assumption and thought I think MSOE should be invited to the WIAC, but if it were up to me MSOE would stay right where it is in the MCHA as not only was MSOE a charter member but also instrumental in sustaining the league during some pretty thin years. So, you can keep your WIAC and do whatever you want to with it, but it still doesn't explain the how and why of your implication that the WIAC would be able to pluck away a few MCHA teams of its choice.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Upon reflecting on this whole scenario over and over again, the word that comes to mind is hubris. The WIAC seems secure in it's collective minds that that it is completely in control of the situation. I'm not so sure that this is the case, and at the very least, they stand to fall into Pool B for two years.

The cost savings on administration doesn't wash, like Norm said. The travel costs for the women was a problem, but there is no reason that they couldn't have simply withdrawn the women from the NCHA and invited some nearby teams to join them. The men's and women's alignments in single sport leagues are totally independent of each other.

It seems to me that a lot of the NCHA administrative cost was covered by revenues from the playoffs. If they don't get a waiver, we could see in the upcoming years a 9-2 split when the ECAC West gets the Pool B bid, and all the Pool C bids go East - likely, no - possible, yes.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Upon reflecting on this whole scenario over and over again,..........
It seems to me that a lot of the NCHA administrative cost was covered by revenues from the playoffs. If they don't get a waiver, we could see in the upcoming years a 9-2 split when the ECAC West gets the Pool B bid, and all the Pool C bids go East - likely, no - possible, yes.

If/when the MCHA adopts SNC&CSC ?........you may find a significant change to the dynamics in your computer rankings.
Silly to even contemplate at this stage,...but there will be 1 out of 3/4 teams in the MCHA that could find themselves in Pool C discussions.

 

[NUProf]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

If/when the MCHA adopts SNC&CSC ?........you may find a significant change to the dynamics in your computer rankings.
Silly to even contemplate at this stage,...but there will be 1 out of 3/4 teams in the MCHA that could find themselves in Pool C discussions.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out for sure. I'm not sure the WIAC was really prepared for the firestorm they created. I think they expected to get their way - which still could happen

 

[Dennis4896]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I'm not trying to argue with anyone, though I do appreciate that you removed the part of your post that said I was whining.

Listen, I'm not an expert with this stuff so I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. As a Division I fan also I'm well aware that the actions of a few schools can lead to a series of effects people might not have been expecting. I understand that you've explained your opinions, and I appreciate it, but I'm still confused over a couple things that you have failed to answer in a sufficient manner. Previously, you stated that if St. Norbert and St. Scholastica did not join the WIAC, the WIAC would just invite Marian and Finlandia and they would "most certainly accept." As a MSOE fan, I'm still confused why those would be preferential to MSOE, and why you think they would "most certainly accept."

You've mentioned the travel distances, but that doesn't pass muster since MSOE is closer to four of the WIAC schools than Finlandia. If it's the lack of a women's program, fine, but you haven't said that anywhere. Since it can't be geography and nothing has been said about the women, I'm just wondering what the reasoning would be. Heck, even if it's to just grab two more teams out of desperation to keep the tournament bid that makes sense too but no one has made that point either. Finally, I'm no expert but I still am a bit confused by the "most certainly accept" part. It could very well be true but what exists that would give anyone such an indication?

None of this probably matters as SNC and CSS will probably just join the WIAC anyway, but that doesn't change the fact you haven't provide reasonable explanations to some pretty far reaching assumptions you effortlessly cast about earlier in the discussion. No need to get wound up about it. I think I, like everyone else here, am just trying to see where all this might go. That's all.

For the record, I'm not sure why you made yet another assumption and thought I think MSOE should be invited to the WIAC, but if it were up to me MSOE would stay right where it is in the MCHA as not only was MSOE a charter member but also instrumental in sustaining the league during some pretty thin years. So, you can keep your WIAC and do whatever you want to with it, but it still doesn't explain the how and why of your implication that the WIAC would be able to pluck away a few MCHA teams of its choice.

First of all, I owe you an apology for what I wrote yesterday. You didn't deserve that. I was having a bad day, and I should have known better.

The reasons I chose Finlandia and Marian instead of, say, MSOE are:
1. Finlandia is already an associate WIAC member in another sport
2. Marian previously showed interest in leaving the MCHA
3. Both have women's hockey teams
4. Marian is closer than MSOE
I was not suggesting that those teams were better than MSOE, only that I thought both would most certainly accept an invitation to join WIAC, while I don't think MSOE would. MW49 then pointed out that Marian would be less likely to leave if SNC were in MCHA, which I think is true.

The women's side is important because without the UW teams there are only seven women's teams left in the NCHA. If WIAC takes even one of those (e.g., Finlandia), NCHA loses their women's AQ.

The point I was making at the time is that WIAC has some alternatives, so a stick-it-to-the-WIAC response might not be in anyone's best interest. There are several potential scenarios where neither WIAC, NCHA, nor MCHA would qualify for AQ's in men's and/or women's hockey.

Also, there is no indication that WIAC would actually use what leverage they have. They are certainly aware that they could end up with just the UW schools, and might decide to just go with that.

 

[GB Puck Fan]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Upon reflecting on this whole scenario over and over again, the word that comes to mind is hubris. The WIAC seems secure in it's collective minds that that it is completely in control of the situation. I'm not so sure that this is the case, and at the very least, they stand to fall into Pool B for two years.

The Pool B situation doesn't seem to bother the WIAC schools. All of those folks I've talked note that for 10 of the past 13 years, they haven't earned the autobid anyway. You can't miss what you don't have, is the attitutude. Seems rather defeatist, if you ask me, but is a part of the reality.

 

[MW49]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

I would think, we will have a decision by early summer.

Well, we are close to what the calendar refers to as early summer.

A decision should be close at hand, and I have this strong feeling that the "WIAC 5" will be left standing alone.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

There's a reason SIDs are salaried employees... If they paid us hourly we'd bankrupt the school.

Just to refresh this statement

 

[Sir Nubs]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Yeah whatever happened to that Dennis guy who used to post on here? He probably went into hiding after everything he predicted couldn't have been further off. That guy must not know his rear end from a hole in the ground when it comes to Division 3 athletics.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Yeah whatever happened to that Dennis guy who used to post on here? He probably went into hiding after everything he predicted couldn't have been further off. That guy must not know his rear end from a hole in the ground when it comes to Division 3 athletics.

He's probably tied up with Mapquest's technical support. Something must have gone wrong with their driving distances that was his basis for failed predictions.

 

[pete99race]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Now that we know that the "New" MCHA conference will play an 18 game conference schedule (two against each team), how many conference games will the WIAC teams play? Four against each opponent (total of 16)???.....would be down two from the present 18 game NCHA conference schedule. Than who do you schedule for non conference games to fill out the schedule? Four with the MIAC would seem reasonable. Rest from the "New" MCHA?

 

[revcraig]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Very well could be, but what might this finally do for recruiting? At least in going to a "state" school, you knew you had the chance to go for a national championship in a couple of different ways (winning conference tournament, having a great record), but now, you have to solely rely upon finishing in the top 1-5 in the nation to get one of those at large bids. If I were a kid being recruited to play D3, where would I rather go? To a team that has a very limited way for me to be a champion or to a school that has a bit more "playing room" to get in? It will be interesting to see how this plays itself out. Does the MCHA and MIAC get stronger now with the top end kids going there?

 

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

Very well could be, but what might this finally do for recruiting? At least in going to a "state" school, you knew you had the chance to go for a national championship in a couple of different ways (winning conference tournament, having a great record), but now, you have to solely rely upon finishing in the top 1-5 in the nation to get one of those at large bids. If I were a kid being recruited to play D3, where would I rather go? To a team that has a very limited way for me to be a champion or to a school that has a bit more "playing room" to get in? It will be interesting to see how this plays itself out. Does the MCHA and MIAC get stronger now with the top end kids going there?

I don’t see the recruiting pendulum shifting away from the WIAC teams anytime soon. At least not until someone beats St. Norbert to earn the MCHA AQ. Until then the WIAC is competing for a pool B and pool C and the rest of the MCHA is competing for the Pool C. So the MCHA (except St. Norbert until further notice) is in the same boat as the WIAC until someone knocks the Green Knights off their Horse. If the WIAC was a start up / newer league I think it would be different, but I think the legacy / history gives the WIAC more than enough credibility for any recruit to research / see.

 

[OSU2010]

I don’t see the recruiting pendulum shifting away from the WIAC teams anytime soon. At least not until someone beats St. Norbert to earn the MCHA AQ. Until then the WIAC is competing for a pool B and pool C and the rest of the MCHA is competing for the Pool C. So the MCHA (except St. Norbert until further notice) is in the same boat as the WIAC until someone knocks the Green Knights off their Horse. If the WIAC was a start up / newer league I think it would be different, but I think the legacy / history gives the WIAC more than enough credibility for any recruit to research / see.

The rest of the mcha is competing for a pool A first, followed by a pool C. They aren't going to just roll over and give St Norbert the pool A without a fight, they're going to have to earn it. I wouldn't be surprised if St. Norbert loses a few in conference this season.

 

[altazo]

The rest of the mcha is competing for a pool A first, followed by a pool C. They aren't going to just roll over and give St Norbert the pool A without a fight, they're going to have to earn it. I wouldn't be surprised if St. Norbert loses a few in conference this season.

Yes, odds are SNC will not go undefeated in conference play this season- there is still one more season of NCHA play.

But yeah, I wouldn't really expect SNC to go undefeated in their first season of MCHA play in 13-14 either. That league is on the upswing.

And I gotta say yes, these moves will adversely affect the quality of recruits the new WIAC attracts. Big time.

 

[Blugold Hockey]

Re: WIAC schools to pull out a year earlier than originally planned

The rest of the mcha is competing for a pool A first, followed by a pool C. They aren't going to just roll over and give St Norbert the pool A without a fight, they're going to have to earn it. I wouldn't be surprised if St. Norbert loses a few in conference this season.

Completely agree that every team will compete their hardest and an existing MCHA team will probably beat the Green Knights at some point during the initial season, but in until someone other than the Green Knights gets the AQ it will not be a major recruiting hurdle for the WIAC to get past. Especially as time goes on, if St. Norbert runs the AQ table for the next five to ten years (looking at their history that is very realistic) in the MCHA, it might actually start to hurt the other MCHA schools ability to recruit. The instant credibility that the MCHA desired and now believes it has by adding two very tough NCHA teams could back fire and really end up hurting this upswing that everyone is talking about. Especially if what people are saying is true about Lake Forest and Marian.