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What would a US "Police State" look like?

Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

walrus said:
This has been going for years in the automobile world. Independent repair shops have sued auto makers for the codes that run a vehicle. So far gm ford etc have had to cough it up.
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Why wouldn't a different manufacturer make a point of offering their codes for free? If it's a big enough pain, people should switch in droves.
 
Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

Kepler said:
Why wouldn't a different manufacturer make a point of offering their codes for free? If it's a big enough pain, people should switch in droves.
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The point is that the average person doesn't know about this with new vehicles until after the car is purchased (caveat emptor), and I highly doubt that many care (going back to your soccer formation or whatever those numbers were). In addition, manufacturers have been doing this in an effort to bolster their service revenue because it is insanely over-priced as it is, and people have been going to independent mechanics. It isn't limited the computer codes, either. Ever try to replace a battery on a Chevy Trailblazer? If you want to look for reform anywhere, look at the government-forced monopoly on dealerships. I believe Tesla has been able to go around this in some parts of the country, but that's one of the factors that started this domino effect of where we are today.
 
Kepler said:
Why wouldn't a different manufacturer make a point of offering their codes for free? If it's a big enough pain, people should switch in droves.
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Because that has worked out so well in the technology field... open source makes up what, a couple percent of the overall computing field (obviously some areas moreso than others).

Any software you buy will have language saying it's just a license, not ownership, and that you can't do things like sell it, or make changes to it, etc.

Now, they're scared shiatless of an average consumer actually challenging this in court - because it seems likely that ultimately the consumer would win and things like the First Sale Doctrine would apply just as it does to tangible things like books or clothes. But that doesn't stop them all from trying in the meantime.
 
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Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

unofan said:
Because that has worked out so well in the technology field... open source makes up what, a couple percent of the overall computing field (obviously some areas moreso than others).

Any software you buy will have language saying it's just a license, not ownership, and that you can't do things like sell it, or make changes to it, etc.

Now, they're scared shiatless of an average consumer actually challenging this in court - because it seems likely that ultimately the consumer would win and things like the First Sale Doctrine would apply just as it does to tangible things like books or clothes. But that doesn't stop them all from trying in the meantime.
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Cars are computers these days. A little knowledge of the assembly language and computer hardware could tell you exactly what those codes do. That's the fun and beauty of the information age: it's like driving one of those 24-hour LeMans races. Any sort of knock or slip-up can set you back, but isn't true straight highway but rather a closed course, so there's always a chance to try to catch up. And it moves at such a rapid pace that bureaucracy can't keep up.
 
Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

unofan said:
Because that has worked out so well in the technology field... open source makes up what, a couple percent of the overall computing field (obviously some areas moreso than others).

Any software you buy will have language saying it's just a license, not ownership, and that you can't do things like sell it, or make changes to it, etc.

Now, they're scared shiatless of an average consumer actually challenging this in court - because it seems likely that ultimately the consumer would win and things like the First Sale Doctrine would apply just as it does to tangible things like books or clothes. But that doesn't stop them all from trying in the meantime.
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If I have a John Deere tractor with a computer in it, with the software that I didn't buy but just acquired a license, I can turn around and sell that tractor, with the computer, and with the software that goes with it. I don't think John Deere is challenging that. That's no different than a record or a book that's copyrighted.

Isn't what they don't want you to do is take their software and "sample it" in music parlance by using it to make a product that is in your eyes perhaps a better or more valuable product? I don't think you ought to be able to take their software and rewrite it to make something you think works better. Write your own software, don't steal what they've created.
 
SJHovey said:
If I have a John Deere tractor with a computer in it, with the software that I didn't buy but just acquired a license, I can turn around and sell that tractor, with the computer, and with the software that goes with it. I don't think John Deere is challenging that. That's no different than a record or a book that's copyrighted.

Isn't what they don't want you to do is take their software and "sample it" in music parlance by using it to make a product that is in your eyes perhaps a better or more valuable product? I don't think you ought to be able to take their software and rewrite it to make something you think works better. Write your own software, don't steal what they've created.
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Why not? If I buy a book, I can tear out some pages and rewrite other parts in the margins. I can even resell that particular copy of that book even after making those changes. Why should software be any different?

Sticking with the tractor, I can soup it up all I want mechanically once I own it. There's no doubt I could repaint it Toro red, replace the engine, change the tires or suspension, etc. I could even start a business doing such things for others. If I'm capable enough to change the software or improve upon it, why shouldn't I be able to do so?
 
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Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

unofan said:
Because that has worked out so well in the technology field... open source makes up what, a couple percent of the overall computing field (obviously some areas moreso than others).

Any software you buy will have language saying it's just a license, not ownership, and that you can't do things like sell it, or make changes to it, etc.

Now, they're scared shiatless of an average consumer actually challenging this in court - because it seems likely that ultimately the consumer would win and things like the First Sale Doctrine would apply just as it does to tangible things like books or clothes. But that doesn't stop them all from trying in the meantime.
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I don't know if it ever went through, but there was a movement at one point to pass an update to the "universal" commercial laws to codify typical shrinkwrap software license terms in state laws.
 
Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

unofan said:
Why not? If I buy a book, I can tear out some pages and rewrite other parts in the margins. I can even resell that particular copy of that book even after making those changes. Why should software be any different?

Sticking with the tractor, I can soup it up all I want mechanically once I own it. There's no doubt I could repaint it Toro red, replace the engine, change the tires or suspension, etc. I could even start a business doing such things for others. If I'm capable enough to change the software or improve upon it, why shouldn't I be able to do so?
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I certainly know nothing about intellectual property law. But from my perspective it's hard to understand the complaint of these farmers (other than farmers love to monkey with every single thing they buy because they think they can make it better).

From the first day I bought a desktop I understood that all I purchased was a hunk of worthless plastic, and a license to use the software necessary to be the product I expected it to be. As we've added computers to other every day products I've always assumed the same.

I just look at it like a can of Coke. I can buy a can of the product. I can resell it if I want. I can even add whiskey or some other substance to it to alter it's taste or composition, and even resell that.

But I've never assumed I bought the formula for it as well, or that I could insist that Coca Cola produce that formula for me so that I could tinker with the ingredients to create a better tasting soft drink.

Sure, Coca Cola still has the patent or copyright or whatever they have, but once the formula is out there, it's way too easy to rip off. Same with computer software.
 
Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

For those of you familiar with the "famous" Wisconsin Union terrace chairs, when you buy one you have to sign something saying you will not repaint them a different color. (You can buy red and white but the ones on the terrace are green, orange, and yellow IIRC). https://www.union.wisc.edu/terracestore/itemVariations.aspx?id=67&cat=Furniture

Does JD have a similar thing when you buy a tractor regarding monkeying with the software? I have a college friend I am seeing next week who owns two of the newer JD tractors and I will ask what type of things he had to sign. (He also just passed his bar exam so hopefully he can give me a somewhat informed opinion.)
 
Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

I don't know how the following pervasive problem fits a "police" state mentality, but more and more we are getting to the point where you can hardly do anything without consulting an attorney first. :(


In some cases, it is impossible to comply with the law: in healthcare, HIPAA imposes certain restrictions on the sharing of confidential information, while PPACA requires the sharing of confidential health information. I've asked several times how the two requirements can be reconciled, but no one will provide an answer unless they receive a fee payment first, and since I am not directly involved and my question is merely curiosity not actual compliance, my question remains unanswered.
 
FreshFish said:
I don't know how the following pervasive problem fits a "police" state mentality, but more and more we are getting to the point where you can hardly do anything without consulting an attorney first. :(


In some cases, it is impossible to comply with the law: in healthcare, HIPAA imposes certain restrictions on the sharing of confidential information, while PPACA requires the sharing of confidential health information. I've asked several times how the two requirements can be reconciled, but no one will provide an answer unless they receive a fee payment first, and since I am not directly involved and my question is merely curiosity not actual compliance, my question remains unanswered.
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Not my area of expertise, but presuming HIPPA is like most other laws regarding confidentiality, there's most likely a catchall exception that would say something like "except as otherwise required by law." Same reason doctors can be forced to testify in court.

I've also noticed in my limited dealings with it that people really don't understand HIPPA and believe it to be a much bigger boogeyman than it really is. Maybe that's because the penalties can seem overly harsh for even inadvertent violations, I don't know. I just know some places won't turn over records even with explicit patient consent unless it's done in triplicate and buried in peat moss for six months.
 
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Re: What would a US "Police State" look like?

5mn_Major said:
And a state of chaos at the same time?
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They often go hand in hand.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 
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